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Old 02-07-2013, 12:32 PM   #46
PhilB
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Originally Posted by dmcd View Post
Your bicyclist will also beat a motorcycle in your theoretical four lap race.
Um, what? Tell me how that works? The motorcycle can do 2 laps on a tank of fuel, and refuel in less than a minute. The bicyclist isn't going to catch up in that minute. The electric bike will ride like hell for about 20 minutes, and then recharge for 2 hours or more. The bicyclist will make up a lot, if not all, of the lost ground then. Do they not teach basic math in school anymore?

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Old 02-07-2013, 12:44 PM   #47
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Don't the Motoczysz (sp?) bikes have quick-swap battery packs?
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:34 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
Um, what? Tell me how that works? The motorcycle can do 2 laps on a tank of fuel, and refuel in less than a minute. The bicyclist isn't going to catch up in that minute. The electric bike will ride like hell for about 20 minutes, and then recharge for 2 hours or more. The bicyclist will make up a lot, if not all, of the lost ground then. Do they not teach basic math in school anymore?

PhilB
Ok, personal insults about the standard of my education aside........., and continuing the strange debate about racing bicyclists (cool word) against motorbicyclists (I made that up), if you are going to allow the conventional bike to refuel with petroleum which is simply stored energy, then you must, as Yossarian said, allow the electric bike a new battery.
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:38 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Yossarian™ View Post
Don't the Motoczysz (sp?) bikes have quick-swap battery packs?
That would make them a lot more capable for a race, and maybe that would be a good next step -- make it a 4-lap race with battery swaps.

Won't make the basic problem go away with regard to real-life usefulness, though. Until they solve energy density and "refueling" time problems to about 10 times better than today, they will remain a niche product. And, while batteries are slowly getting better, they cannot get that much better. Batteries are a dead end technology.

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Originally Posted by dmcd View Post
Ok, personal insults about the standard of my education aside........., and continuing the strange debate about racing bicyclists (cool word) against motorbicyclists (I made that up), if you are going to allow the conventional bike to refuel with petroleum which is simply stored energy, then you must, as Yossarian said, allow the electric bike a new battery.
As noted above, that would help in the race, although it doesn't relate to the energy storage problems in real life, as it isn't in any way practical to carry extra bettery packs, or to stage them along your journeys any time you want to go out of the county you live in, etc.

And you still didn't explain how a bicyclist would beat a motorcycle in the TT race. Of course the motorcycle is allowed to refuel; that's normal and practical practice. New battery packs would be the equivalent of not just putting gas in, but having to replace the gas tank every time you ran out of gas. That would make motorcycles a lot less practical.

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PhilB screwed with this post 02-07-2013 at 01:44 PM
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Old 02-07-2013, 01:53 PM   #50
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Yeah ok, new tank for a new battery seems like a fair comparison. I only chipped in with the video about the TT because I was there when they first raced in 2010, and it was a bit of a joke. But, by 2012 they were starting to raise eyebrows with the 104mph lap. The advances with only 3 years development, were in my opinion amazing.

The race is actually called the TT Zero, for zero emission bikes, which should in time allow Hydrogen power etc. I think the whole electric/rechargable thing will die out once Hydrogen power is developed. But I have been wrong before.
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Old 02-07-2013, 03:34 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
That would make them a lot more capable for a race, and maybe that would be a good next step -- make it a 4-lap race with battery swaps.

Won't make the basic problem go away with regard to real-life usefulness, though. Until they solve energy density and "refueling" time problems to about 10 times better than today, they will remain a niche product. And, while batteries are slowly getting better, they cannot get that much better. Batteries are a dead end technology.

As noted above, that would help in the race, although it doesn't relate to the energy storage problems in real life, as it isn't in any way practical to carry extra bettery packs, or to stage them along your journeys any time you want to go out of the county you live in, etc.

And you still didn't explain how a bicyclist would beat a motorcycle in the TT race. Of course the motorcycle is allowed to refuel; that's normal and practical practice. New battery packs would be the equivalent of not just putting gas in, but having to replace the gas tank every time you ran out of gas. That would make motorcycles a lot less practical.

PhilB
What if there was an infrastructure to swap battery packs and they were drop out/plug in style. It'd certainly be easier on a car but it seems like a lot of the naysayers are being rather short sighted here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmcd View Post
Yeah ok, new tank for a new battery seems like a fair comparison. I only chipped in with the video about the TT because I was there when they first raced in 2010, and it was a bit of a joke. But, by 2012 they were starting to raise eyebrows with the 104mph lap. The advances with only 3 years development, were in my opinion amazing.

The race is actually called the TT Zero, for zero emission bikes, which should in time allow Hydrogen power etc. I think the whole electric/rechargable thing will die out once Hydrogen power is developed. But I have been wrong before.
queue the comments about how electric vehicles have emissions because the power plants do. yawn.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:27 PM   #52
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Interesting concept, though not terribly useful. If they made it a hybrid with a small gas engine to recharge on the go, or a hydrogen fuel cell, it would be very cool. An electric vehicle without a means to recharge as quickly as filling a gas or hydrogen tank is useless to me. I don't always want to take the short way home, and with gasoline power, I don't have to worry so much about range due to the availability of gas stations.
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:53 PM   #53
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Interesting concept, though not terribly useful. If they made it a hybrid with a small gas engine to recharge on the go, or a hydrogen fuel cell, it would be very cool. An electric vehicle without a means to recharge as quickly as filling a gas or hydrogen tank is useless to me. I don't always want to take the short way home, and with gasoline power, I don't have to worry so much about range due to the availability of gas stations.
I recall a concept hybrid motorcycle, electric/diesel 125cc it could go 80mph and get 170 mpg iirc
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:06 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmcd View Post
Yeah ok, new tank for a new battery seems like a fair comparison. I only chipped in with the video about the TT because I was there when they first raced in 2010, and it was a bit of a joke. But, by 2012 they were starting to raise eyebrows with the 104mph lap. The advances with only 3 years development, were in my opinion amazing.
No doubt, they made some very significant developments in a short period of time. I cannot help but hope that the pace of development continues to be high, but my optimism is guarded.
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Old 02-08-2013, 07:35 AM   #55
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I've long thought an electric dirt bike or quad could be delightfull. The torque curve of a connected electric motor would be fantastic for controlling my way through tricky parts. No slipping the clutch, no banging up and down the gears. The comparative quiet would also allow me to see more wildlife.

Lack of range is the biggest drawback, though that's changed quite a bit in the past few years. The fun of accidentally running out of power somewhere way back would also not be pleasant. I can walk out and back in with a gas can. Not so easily done carrying a bunch of batteries.
Maybe someday we will see some "Rotojuice" packs that don't weigh much and cost much and can be quick x-change. Until then "adventure electric bike" is a contradiction in terms! In terms of OR use that electric would likely act a lot like a bike with a Rekluse on it I think. I believe these problems will be solved by smart electrical engineers and e-cars will also benefit.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:07 PM   #56
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Hey Everyone,

My name is Jake and I am pretty new to the motorcycle scene. I am researching Electric Motorcycles and I was curious what experienced motorcyclists thought about them. I would appreciate it if you could answer the questions below!

First off, what are the first three words come into your mind when I say "Electric Motorcycle"?

How do you expect Electric Motorcycles (EM) to feel, sound, handle, etc.? If you have ridden a EM please share your experience!

Which aesthetic is more appealing... Brammo's Empulse or Zero Motorycles' Zero S?

What top three things do you Like and Dislike about EMs?

Finally, if you were going to purchase an Electric Dual Sport/Adventure Motorcycle, what characteristics or features would you like to have on the motorcycle?

Again, I would really appreciate your help!

Thank You!
3 words: Young technology; run.

I like the idea of a different type of engine/means of propulsion just for the cool factor, but I'm not the early adopter type with ten to fifteen grand to throw at a new toy. Bless you buyers of first-gen e-bikes, because there will be significant improvements with time.

The biggest draw backs are obvious; until electric bikes have alternate refueling methods, they won't be mainstream. This is one great solution to e-vehicles (Israel's swappable battery cars), and capacitors make a lot of sense compared to batteries.

A truly successful and useful electric-only vehicle will have internals that are nothing like what can be purchased today.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:22 PM   #57
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It's hilarious to me how uncreative people are about imagining the future. Yes, we'll obviously NEVER have practical electric motorcycles because of the current limitations of existing e-bikes and our infrastructure.

I don't envision e-bikes replacing ICE bikes for long-distance riding but I imagine that inexpensive (to own AND operate) electric motos will be VERY useful to urban commuters all over the world. Once governments and the greater public start realizing the advantages of them, they will lose the association with "biker culture" and start being viewed the way carpooling and small 50cc scooters and bicycle lanes are -- just ways to reduce traffic congestion, smog, noise pollution and lack of parking space. The advantages of them are just impossible to ignore.
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Old 02-09-2013, 01:53 PM   #58
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I just don't see this technology taking off in the US anytime soon. The big polluted Chinese cities have millions of electric scooters today. That makes perfect sense. The battery gets you to/from work and you carry it up to your apartment to charge at night. Someone can make their fortune with these over there as a step up in performance.

But what US motorcycle segment wants them?
Harley riders? don't think so
Dual-sport or adventure riders: not enough range, don't want to be left in the woods
GoldWing see-the-US types? range and payload issues
Sport bikers?

Perhaps that would be a good angle. Leverage the massive torque and the Isle of Man thing to make a great sport bike. I don't think range is a major concern for these guys. But now you have to compete with a BMW S1000RR at $14 grand. It would be tough to get the motor/battery/weight equation right at that price.

I wouldn't bet my life savings investing with these guys.
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Old 02-09-2013, 02:18 PM   #59
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my brother law in the states about 10 years ago

he is a scientst

was starting a company

where you pull up at a gas st

and changed ur electrolite

ie pump in and out with the old

just a thought
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Old 02-09-2013, 03:35 PM   #60
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3 Words: Smiles, range, price.

My budget for my next bike is in the $4k range for a used bike. At this time I can't justify $8k on a bike, let alone 14. Beyond that, I believe that -to beat a dead horse- storage density is the only major drawback. All the other technologies are in place.
I work in manufacturing where we build large (38-80T) front end loaders for surface mining applications. These are driven using 4 600 HP Switched Reluctance motors powered by a diesel generator. These can be tuned for max torque at 0 RPM (just like DC brushless). I'm sure some ebike engineers are exploring these for their application.

I believe capacitors are the answer to the energy storage question. Right now they are cost prohibitive (~$1500 for 150F @ 48V). I am very interested to see where the technology in this video goes in the next few years: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtM6XJlynkk

If those graphene supercaps can be reliably scaled up to the size needed for bikes & cars for a low cost, I believe a transportation revolution will not be far behind.
I also would be in favor of either a hydrogen or CNG motorcycle.
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