ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Road warriors
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-05-2013, 03:22 PM   #31
EricD10563
Studly Adventurer
 
EricD10563's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Location: Central Arizona
Oddometer: 650
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrix View Post
'Slippery slope': A diversionary tactic used to deflect debate from actual case to imaginary one which supports one's point. Unable to refute statement 'A', one introduces proposition 'A therefore B' and continues to argue about 'B' instead. The logical fallacy lies of course in the fact that 'therefore' part is completely unproven, except by reference to the concept of 'slippery slope' which is not a proof but simply an oratory device.
The name might also refer to the fact the technique is both slippery and sloppy - easily recognised by those able to think logically, but often slips by others, who perhaps used up most of their brain power on learning the location of various switches :)
You're hired.
__________________
In 2009 I rode 18,589 miles on an island that's 72 miles long. That's 50 miles a day everyday for 365 days. I think I'll go home now. 90k miles and still riding http://travelwithe.com/blogengine.net/ my YouTube Channel http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTJA4CrFRY-_rvDejPct73g
EricD10563 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 05:04 PM   #32
Smopho
Adventurer
 
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Central TX
Oddometer: 89
I alternate, sometimes in the same day, between a Road Glide and Tiger 800. You get used to it quickly, just initiate the right turn before you start braking, which you should be doing anyway. It won't self cancel until after the turn. I'm waiting for everyone else to catch up with HD's signalling. Also wish all bikes had emergency flashers like HD does too.
Smopho is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 05:45 PM   #33
FR700
Heckler™©®
 
FR700's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: Traveler
Oddometer: 5,684
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrix View Post
'Slippery slope': A diversionary tactic used to deflect debate from actual case to imaginary one which supports one's point

That the premise escapes you is not all that surprising ... much like you pinning your hopes on the above diatribe in the hopes that it will divert attention from the other points I mentioned that would on the surface appear to be beyond your capability to reply/respond to


Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrix View Post
It just makes everybody's life simpler in the long run.

One of the reasons I know that you don't hold any cards and it is beyond you is in the above quote ... it makes it " simpler " for YOU , not everyone , just you.


For someone to have a fleet of vehicles such as a trucking company there is merit in standardizing the vehicles in use ... spec' them with the same gearbox for example. To limit the choice of gearboxes to just one for everyone is beyond words that you would feel comfortable reading.

Standardize all the computers that a company uses in an office setting ... yeah sure , as it may well simplify logistics.


... ask how many people here are running windows ... or explorer for a browser as opposed to say firefox or chrome ... do you advocate we standardize it to just one OS and browser ?





.
__________________
I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
FR700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2013, 10:03 PM   #34
ferrix
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia
Oddometer: 646
Quote:
Originally Posted by FR700 View Post
... ask how many people here are running windows ... or explorer for a browser as opposed to say firefox or chrome ... do you advocate we standardize it to just one OS and browser ?
.
You continue to blame me for words that you yourself insist on putting into my mouth. I repeat: I advocate standardising the controls, nothing else. Not the types of vehicles, not the types of gearboxes and not the types of browsers. All of that is your own invention and please stop attributing it to me.

However since you brought up software... I run Linux on my computers - enough said. Still, within the desktop environment, I do value consistency of interface, for example I expect the widgets controlling windows to be in the same corner regardless of which application is using said window. Or another example: I expect to find 'Quit' item to be under 'File' menu rather than some other location. Because when it comes to actions that rely on muscle memory, consistency is good. This, far from 'dumbing down' my environment as you suggested, allows me* to concentrate on more interesting and important aspects of the software than hunting through the options looking for the trivial functionality.
This analogy carries on exactly to the case of indicators on the bike.

I have nothing more to say on the subject, thanks for playing :)

* ... and by 'me', I do mean 'everybody', because number of studies done on interfaces confirm that is how human brain works. That too translates directly to riding, I refer you for example to Keith Code and his '10 dollars of attention' theory from his 'Twist of the wrist' - basically, he's saying you have a finite amount of attention which you then allocate to various tasks - but the more you allocate to one, the less you've got left for the others.

ferrix screwed with this post 02-05-2013 at 10:27 PM
ferrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2013, 12:04 AM   #35
FR700
Heckler™©®
 
FR700's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: Traveler
Oddometer: 5,684
Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrix View Post
I repeat: I advocate standardising the controls, nothing else.

... so you admit that you do not have the skill set to adapt to various bikes ... that's cool , but how's 'bout you leave the rest of us that WANT variety the chance to choose for ourselves. They're handlebar controls for fucks sake , the shit isn't that hard.

Oh , and stay away from my sidecar ... it's got a foot brake pedal for the chair on the left of the bike , a brake pedal for the bikes back brake on the right side as well as the front brakes in their now customary position located on the right handlebar ... you'll likely have an aneurysm.





Quote:
Originally Posted by ferrix View Post
I have nothing more to say on the subject.

.


... bullshit ... you're still trying to work out an answer ... you'll be back




.
__________________
I'm diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
FR700 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 03:34 AM   #36
foxtrapper OP
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Sep 2011
Oddometer: 643
I've never confused my Harley for my dirt bike. And I've never confused either of them for my snowmobile. Yet they all have right hand throttles. Can't say I've ever found myself lacking in variety because of this standardization.

Of all the planes I've flown, they all pull up when I pull the yoke back. I do not enjoy playing video games that reverse this, causing me to make mistakes I have to correct.

When I'm driving blind because of mud that got splashed on my windshield, and I'm struggling trying to find or remember where this particular manufacturer chose to hide the wiper switch, I sometimes find myself wishing for a little standardization, so I can enjoy the driving experience, instead of wasting my time and effort on things that prevent me from enjoying the drive or ride. Is it pull this knob, or maybe twist this other knob? Maybe it's flip this lever up, or down, or back, or twist it, no twist it the other way. Or in the case of a certain Fiat, Pull this knob, twist this other knob, and throw this third lever.
foxtrapper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2013, 07:26 AM   #37
Dave in Wi
Beastly Adventurer
 
Dave in Wi's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Madison WI (40 Square Miles Surrounded By Reality)
Oddometer: 1,904
Quote:
Originally Posted by FR700 View Post
...

... bullshit ...

.
You may not know it, but there's an entire section of this forum created for folks to endlessly argue with each other. It's called CSM, in the Joe Momma section. Check it out, I think you will like it.
__________________
Dave in WI
2002 ZRX1200R
1975 XL100
1988 DT50
"Daddy, it's five o'clock sometime!"
Dave in Wi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2013, 05:51 PM   #38
Randy
Beastly Adventurer
 
Randy's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2002
Location: Newnan, GA USA
Oddometer: 2,258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Wi View Post
You may not know it, but there's an entire section of this forum created for folks to endlessly argue with each other. It's called CSM, in the Joe Momma section. Check it out, I think you will like it.

__________________
"some might call it a 'midlife crisis', I prefer to call it a renaissance of thought and action"... "Life is too short to do anything other than that about which you are absolutely passionate."..."Adventure is a frame of mind, set upon by action, not defined by equipment."..."It all boils down to your ability to say "SCREW IT" and really mean it"....Randy
Randy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2013, 10:16 AM   #39
Dave in Wi
Beastly Adventurer
 
Dave in Wi's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Madison WI (40 Square Miles Surrounded By Reality)
Oddometer: 1,904
This winter seems to be making inmates extra cranky. Couldn't help myself.

So just to keep this on topic, I think Harley's turn signal controls are the best in the industry.
__________________
Dave in WI
2002 ZRX1200R
1975 XL100
1988 DT50
"Daddy, it's five o'clock sometime!"
Dave in Wi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-09-2013, 01:02 PM   #40
Randy
Beastly Adventurer
 
Randy's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2002
Location: Newnan, GA USA
Oddometer: 2,258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Wi View Post
This winter seems to be making inmates extra cranky. Couldn't help myself.

So just to keep this on topic, I think Harley's turn signal controls are the best in the industry.

Yep.

I think we should definitely standardize on THAT layout!

I mean, if it's the best that will ever be devised it would prevent anyone from wasting their time trying to improve upon them. Plus it would just make it so much easier for everyone....






__________________
"some might call it a 'midlife crisis', I prefer to call it a renaissance of thought and action"... "Life is too short to do anything other than that about which you are absolutely passionate."..."Adventure is a frame of mind, set upon by action, not defined by equipment."..."It all boils down to your ability to say "SCREW IT" and really mean it"....Randy
Randy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 06:47 PM   #41
msells
Gnarly Adventurer
 
msells's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Canton, Georgia, USA
Oddometer: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripped1 View Post
Just change the left switch out with a dirtbike switch (a lot of Harleys have 1" bars vice the 7/8" you find on japanese bikes)

You'll have to rewire but that shouldn't be that complicated.
I believe the Harley will be one inch (1") handle bars and that some new-ish big-ish metric cruisers also use the "fat" 1 inch bars instead of the usual Japanese 7/8". Do some reading and see if this is true for more than the one example I could quickly find ("Honda Shadow ACE" - http://www.hondashadow.net/forum/53-...hadow-ace.html seems to confirm this).

I think newer Harleys may have more complex switch wiring that the pre-1990 stuff that I have played with. Notably, there maybe special things like turning on hazards (push both left & right at the same time?) that won't work with the new single switch setup and require some thinking.

Good luck!
msells is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 08:18 PM   #42
Tripped1
Likely Lost.
 
Tripped1's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Sandy Eggo
Oddometer: 7,118
Quote:
Originally Posted by msells View Post
I believe the Harley will be one inch (1") handle bars and that some new-ish big-ish metric cruisers also use the "fat" 1 inch bars instead of the usual Japanese 7/8". Do some reading and see if this is true for more than the one example I could quickly find ("Honda Shadow ACE" - http://www.hondashadow.net/forum/53-...hadow-ace.html seems to confirm this).

I think newer Harleys may have more complex switch wiring that the pre-1990 stuff that I have played with. Notably, there maybe special things like turning on hazards (push both left & right at the same time?) that won't work with the new single switch setup and require some thinking.

Good luck!

Like I said a switch is a switch, if there are enough poles it doesn't matter, its just how its wired up.

.....of course Harley copyrights their manuals so I don't know off the top of my head, but assuming they are momentary action single pole single throw, you get a double throw/double pole and holding it down would be the turn signal activation.

Most single switches are double pole double throw, two wires per side and the hold down grounds it. At worst you have to putz around with the relay. Right now my Speed Triple has a trailer turn signal relay because I'll be damned if I was going to pay Triumph $75 + shipping for a damn signal relay, I'll pay autozone $13

Anyone have a service manual and a know how to read a scat?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by RottenScummyTroll View Post
Show folks something with a clutch and carburetor, and it's like teaching a baboon to use a Macbook.
Tripped1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-10-2013, 08:56 PM   #43
stevie88
That's gotta hurt
 
stevie88's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: The place dad always warned me about
Oddometer: 17,590
Or you could just never use your turn signals.
__________________
In Russia we have saying, "if it isn't broke, don't fix it". We also say, "if it is broke, don't fix it".
stevie88 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 06:17 AM   #44
msells
Gnarly Adventurer
 
msells's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2003
Location: Canton, Georgia, USA
Oddometer: 197
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripped1 View Post
Like I said a switch is a switch, if there are enough poles it doesn't matter, its just how its wired up.
My initial point was that on the original "left on left bar, right on right bar" is that it's possible to engage BOTH switches at once. If you replace that with a "flip left or flip right" you can't flip it both ways to get your hazards on.

Wiring is actually likely more complicated than that on newer (post 2000?) bikes ; the turn signals may be handled by the TSM / TSSM (turn signals and security module all in one!) - http://www.harleyshoptalk.net/forums...howtopic=29500. Things like security, tilt sensors and "module" can get annoyed pretty easily. See www.jpcycles.com/instructions/pdf/380-215.pdf for a procedure to reset the TSM / TSSM. I'm not saying this is part of what you need to do but it does show that that module might need a reset if you change things and resetting it reads like a video game cheat (Off, on, off, on, off, on, left, left, right, right, right, left, hold left, ignition on).

There is a standard - http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-199...sec571-123.xml "Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 123 standardizes
motorcycle controls to minimize the risk of crashes resulting from operator errors in the use of controls." If a manufacturer doesn't follow it they can apply for a "Decision of Inconsequential Noncompliance" http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2003...l/03-22041.htm

msells screwed with this post 02-11-2013 at 06:35 AM Reason: added FMVSS links
msells is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2013, 01:39 PM   #45
Tripped1
Likely Lost.
 
Tripped1's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Sandy Eggo
Oddometer: 7,118
Quote:
Originally Posted by msells View Post
My initial point was that on the original "left on left bar, right on right bar" is that it's possible to engage BOTH switches at once. If you replace that with a "flip left or flip right" you can't flip it both ways to get your hazards on.

Wiring is actually likely more complicated than that on newer (post 2000?) bikes ; the turn signals may be handled by the TSM / TSSM (turn signals and security module all in one!) - http://www.harleyshoptalk.net/forums...howtopic=29500. Things like security, tilt sensors and "module" can get annoyed pretty easily. See www.jpcycles.com/instructions/pdf/380-215.pdf for a procedure to reset the TSM / TSSM. I'm not saying this is part of what you need to do but it does show that that module might need a reset if you change things and resetting it reads like a video game cheat (Off, on, off, on, off, on, left, left, right, right, right, left, hold left, ignition on).

There is a standard - http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-199...sec571-123.xml "Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 123 standardizes
motorcycle controls to minimize the risk of crashes resulting from operator errors in the use of controls." If a manufacturer doesn't follow it they can apply for a "Decision of Inconsequential Noncompliance" http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2003...l/03-22041.htm

All well and good, completely besides the point though, there is only input and output, if you can make them match you can use whatever you want to switch it. Which means an adequate number of poles, no more no less.

The mechanical means simply doesn't matter.

and you certainly can flip it "on" both ways at worst you have to add a relay, but that is far from difficult work. A double throw/double pole can be wired to act independantly or with a common (such as pressing it down) that actives both sides. Its simply a matter of wiring.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by RottenScummyTroll View Post
Show folks something with a clutch and carburetor, and it's like teaching a baboon to use a Macbook.
Tripped1 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 08:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014