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Old 02-12-2013, 04:35 PM   #16
Offcenter
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[QUOTE=

Bikes are nowhere near as bad as cars with respect to complexity and problems, but
they're headed toward the sort of complexity which will require connecting to a computer
to have any hope of determining the source of some problems. It is difficult to imagine
how anyone could find such a machine preferable to a machine which could be diagnosed
and repaired with common tools.

.[/QUOTE]

+1000 !!!!
I have four bikes, all from the 1970s.
They are simple and repairable...by ME!
And no one can call a 74 BMW or a 76 Goldwing unreliable.
Both are known to run over a quarter million miles with no difficulty.
My BMW already has 172,000 extremely reliable miles on it!
I too will stick with the oldies, thanks.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:41 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ph0rk View Post
Bike sales didn't decline in 2012 in the States, so I'm not sure what your railing against.

Railing ?

I wasn't even warmed up yet


I prefer simple reliable machines which work well.


Other people can and should buy what they like.



.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:43 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by It'sNotTheBike View Post
Railing ?

I wasn't even warmed up yet


I prefer simple reliable machines which work well.


Other people can and should buy what they like.


.
Okay, sure, you weren't complaining about the way bikes are all complicated now and stuff.
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:46 PM   #19
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Old 02-12-2013, 04:55 PM   #20
It'sNotTheBike
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ph0rk View Post
Okay, sure, you weren't complaining about the way bikes are all complicated now and stuff.

I expressed my personal dislike of the increasing complexity of newer bikes.

Since that is my OPINION, this is not a case which involves me being
right or you being right or one or the other of us being wrong. It is an
expression of my preference, and in matters of preference there is no
such thing as "right" or "wrong".


What you prefer is your choice. You ( and everyone else ) should buy and
ride the bike you prefer, and everyone can be happy with his or her choice



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Old 02-12-2013, 04:59 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by It'sNotTheBike View Post

What you prefer is your choice. You ( and everyone else ) should buy and
ride the bike you prefer, and everyone can be happy with his or her choice
That would result in much less site traffic.
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Old 02-12-2013, 05:00 PM   #22
It'sNotTheBike
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If you're old enough to be pining for carbs, your reflexes probably aren't so hot anymore, either.

I find your guesses of my abilities and physical characteristics to be nothing
so much as proof you are not very smart. Assumptions without facts are the
province of fools.

I'm done discussing this with you.

Goodbye.


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Old 02-12-2013, 05:40 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by It'sNotTheBike View Post
I find your guesses of my abilities and physical characteristics to be nothing
so much as proof you are not very smart. Assumptions without facts are the
province of fools.

I'm done discussing this with you.

Goodbye.


.
Given that you continued to "discuss" with me long after I posted that, I think I'll live.

If you are over 35, your reflexes have turned the corner (as have mine), whether or not you get touchy about it. If you are much younger than 35, I find it hard to believe you really know how bad carbed cars sucked to live with.


This thread is a typical example of the power of nostalgia. Home wrenching is great, but modern safety and emissions standards arguably outweigh the changes. being able to start on a cold day or ride at altitude is invaluable.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:34 PM   #24
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There are certainly benefits and drawbacks to each choice.

I would love to get a good 750 Commando again. Would I try to ride it daily as transport? No. Way too much of a PITA; modern bikes work a hell of a lot better. And the Commando is one of the more usable and functional of vintage bikes.

I really like my Monster M900. I think it hits a sweet spot in bike tech -- it is modern enough to be reliable and made with modern materials and manufacturing tech, so it is durable and mostly trouble-free, yet old enough to be simple and repairable. Yes, it has carbs, but they are good advanced carbs, and have not caused much trouble; they start in cold weather and all that. It is quite likely I will be riding it for a long time yet.

However, if I did need to replace it for some reason, I would be happy to move to a new bike with FI and ABS and all the goodies that modern tech entails. It will no longer be repairable by me with handtools, yet it will work well and long and not take very much attention either.

It's all trade-offs.

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Old 02-12-2013, 08:01 PM   #25
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it really comes down to what you want out of a motorcycle. some people get off on the latest computerized gps enabled traction controlled,transformer styled electro gizmo.good for them.just don't drop it unless you have some friends around to help you pick it up. don;t break it unless you got the bucks for the dealer to fix it. (oh but the bmw dealer was so nice to send the truck to retrieve the bike. they only took 2 days to figure out what was wrong.) as i said that is not what motorcycling has ever been for me. jay leno once said his brough superior was the most fun to ride out of his vast stable.it was about involvement.my carbureted 98 ducati gets 60+ mpg , weighs under 400 lbs.and will keep up with any new sportbike in the canyons. its relativly easy to work on .another thing that annoys me is the newer bikes look cheap. every thing looks optimized for the assembly line. and digital guages,,please. ireally think motorcycles reached there zenith in the late 90s early millenium.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:30 PM   #26
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No nostalgia here... I rode all that 60's and 70's crap back in the 60's and 70's.

Every new generation of bikes I've ridden since then has been both more fun to ride and an improvement in terms of reliability, low maintenance, handling, performance, etc etc.

I'm old enough that I no longer need "more power" but "Skyhook" active suspension? ABS? Multiple maps? High power LED lights? Hell yes, sign me up!
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:47 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtyron View Post
ireally think motorcycles reached there zenith in the late 90s early millenium.

People said the same things about cars in the 90's. Perhaps that cohort aged out, but present day enthusiasts are pretty happy with the offerings. Are there computers in those cars (and newer bikes)? Sure, but a computer is just a fancy abacus: you can make it do what you want it to do.


I don't think that riding has to be about the motorcycle - the bike should just work for those that want it to (which is almost certainly the majority of riders). Maybe a simple bike made with todays advancements in metals and machining would be nice, but it would never pass EPA regs. I think less vehicular emissions are a good goal, even a noble goal. Smog isn't a figment of our imagination:



A discussion about EPA regs is an entirely different kettle of fish, but if you take the modern emissions changes as a given (and, to be legal, you must), then the rest of the stuff is pretty easy to add. Not all EFI bikes have bad fueling - the DL650 is pretty damn good in that regard and the pre 2012 bikes are essentially a 14 year old ignition system design. Sure, there are a few somewhat twitchy EFI bikes out there but newer ECUs have more resolution and there were duds before EFI.

Technological progress is inevitable. With progress comes complexity - perhaps that is why the antique car market is thriving right now (though that is a collector-heavy segment and not all purchasers are enthusiasts).

As for gauges, I still like an analog tach at the least, analog speedo if I can get it - you can get some information via peripheral vision that way. An LCD for other stuff is fine, nothing wrong with a digital clock or a thermometer, or a gas gauge for that matter. Not a big fan of a digital speedo, and digital tachometers just seem weird.

Of course, "analog" tachometers and speedometers in most modern bikes are computer controlled anyway, so the actual needle is just aesthetic. A pleasant one, but about as necessary as chrome on a muffler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TTTom View Post
I'm old enough that I no longer need "more power" but "Skyhook" active suspension? ABS? Multiple maps? High power LED lights? Hell yes, sign me up!
I'll admit I'm not gonzo for electronic adjust suspension (perhaps just BMW's version with its unmodifiable presets), but the skyhook system sounds neat as hell.
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:58 PM   #28
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Automotive ....fuel injection all the way. It's made 4x4'n mucho better

ABS...in my car I don't mind it, but in my 4x4 I totally hate it, best way to write off ur truck on the bush summer or winter

FI on bikes. I don't think it's quite there yet quality wise from what I have read on this and other sites.

ABS on a bike, not for me for the riding I do. Maybe on a street only bike it is a great idea but in an off road/DS bike I think it would suck. I have seen some videos of the big "Adventure" bikes off road trying to get down a slick/gravel hill and loose all braking due to the ABS "working" .....

I love my Super Enduro.
NO abs
NO FI
NO fly by wire
NO electronic suspension

I'm pushing 50 and I like some of the new stuff AND some of the old stuff
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:08 PM   #29
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[QUOTE=JOKER650

I love my Super Enduro.
NO abs
NO FI
NO fly by wire
NO electronic suspension

and if you drop it crossing that creek you're not absoloutly f*****d
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:10 PM   #30
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Modern cars and bikes aren't necessarily harder to work on. You may just need different tools and/or knowledge.

My OBDII car doesn't require hooking up to anything to pull codes. I just jumper a plug and cycle the key, then watch the CEL. It tells you what sensors are getting tripped.

My ABS car stops great on ice, in a straight line or swerving. I changed the brakes on it this past autumn, like I have on any other car I've ever had. Changing the pads and rotors was a hell of a lot easier than changing drums, shoes, cylinders, and hardware.

ECM goes bad? This happened on my MPI Jeep Wrangler. Squirrels also chewed through the wiring to 2 injectors. I soldered in new injector wires in maybe 20 minutes, including the time to set up my soldering iron. Then we swapped in an ECM found on Ebay for $50. It took maybe 10 minutes. I could easily carry a spare. The junkyards/salvagers have used ones, if I don't want to pay for a new one.
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