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Old 02-12-2013, 09:06 PM   #1
zigyphoto OP
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Nyt article on aging riders / accidents

read the rules before posting this, so apologies if still not congruent, but i believe it is simply something to share:

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/0...riders-beware/

note the photo is a stock image... but the rider and ridee probably look that way all the time; why use that jerk and jerkette when there are many of us who don't ride like that? It just proves to the ignorant reader what fools motorcyclists can be...

scroll down to the readers' comments; some interesting ones, and one moron in particular that i responded to with a manly GS rider's indignation:


mrpoizun hot springs:

One thing's for sure; figures never lie, but liars always figure. For every study that says older riders have more accidents, there are ten that say younger riders have more accidents. Older riders ride in cruising mode. They just putter around on their hogs, enjoy the scenery and are always on the lookout for a place that has a bigger tenderloin than the last place. Younger riders, on the other hand, ride crotch rockets that will go 180mph and they're always looking for a long enough stretch of road to get there. Why do you suppose insurance rates are so much lower for older riders with much more expensive bikes?

and i responded:

mrpoizun wrote: "Older riders ride in cruising mode. They just putter around on their hogs, enjoy the scenery and are always on the lookout for a place that has a bigger tenderloin than the last place."

****

M, from the above, i doubt you ride (or even "putter").

I'm 65, and in the recent past years have -- to use your terminology -- "puttered around" NZ (twice), Tasmania, all over the US West many times, to AK (twice), to and around BC (2-3 times. most recently August 2012), and this year will be in Iceland -- on my BMW GS. Not once have I spent any time looking for a steak. Not all of us "putter," and I NEVER ride anywhere near those types of clowns, especially ones like the one featured in the stock image used for the article.

However, as a former MSF Rider Coach, I agree that those who "putter around" as you described are EXACTLY the ones who get slammed; they don't spend enough time truly riding to keep up their skills. They get on their machines, go cruise to show off and pay the price. As small as Boulder is, I don't cruise around town, and when I take off on a long trip the first day is spent constantly monitoring myself even more than usual to see if there is any way I'm putting myself at risk by not being up to my usual skill level.

I used to tell my MSF students that riding anywhere is a tiny bit like what I imagine WWII air combat used to be: constant threat elimination. That car coming up to intersection: he sees me and has stopped? -- OK. The car with the turn signal on -- is he really turning? -- OK. and so forth.

Lesson: pay attention and stay alive. It's kept me safe since I started riding in 1989.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:26 AM   #2
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I figured that this would end up in The Perfect Line.

Interesting article.

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Old 02-13-2013, 08:25 AM   #3
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The article doesn't say that older riders have more accidents per capita. It says that there are more older riders, so the issue is more visible. It says they get injured more. Those are all different things.

I am amused (and annoyed) by the statement in the article that
Quote:
Another theory is that older riders tend to ride bigger bikes, “which may be more likely to roll or turn over,” Ms. Jackson said.
It shows a complete lack of knowledge on said researcher's part about motorcycles and riding, and causes me to question any conclusions she may have reached. Bigger bikes may indeed be a factor, but thinking that "rolling or turning over" is a cause is just ignorance.

(Plus my own pet peeve is triggered of calling that a "theory", when it doesn't even qualify as a hypothesis, much less an actual theory. A theory is something that has been thoroughly investigated and a high level of support, and is very likely to be true. A half-assed hunch is not a theory.)

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Old 02-13-2013, 08:49 AM   #4
dwoodward
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Not a stock photo. Oregon, last night:


According to Sergeant Travis Lee, on February 12, 2013 at approximately 6:39 p.m., a 2004 Harley Davidson motorcycle operated by SCOTT DAVID NUCKLES, age 54, from Central Point, was eastbound on Highway 238 near milepost 36 when it failed to safely negotiate through a left curve. The motorcycle drove off the highway and collided head-on into a power pole.
2012, Cruisers made up 37% of all motorcycles, and accounted for 47% of all rider fatalities in Oregon.

In a 2012 rider survey, one third of respondents reported they typically ride less than 1000 miles a year; median mles-per-year is about 3,000.
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Old 02-13-2013, 08:59 AM   #5
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Quote:
ccording to Sergeant Travis Lee, on February 12, 2013 at approximately 6:39 p.m., a 2004 Harley Davidson motorcycle operated by SCOTT DAVID NUCKLES, age 54, from Central Point, was eastbound on Highway 238 near milepost 36 when it failed to safely negotiate through a left curve. The motorcycle drove off the highway and collided head-on into a power pole.
In reading that article it sounds as though the motorcycle caused the crash, not the rider.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:05 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duck View Post
In reading that article it sounds as though the motorcycle caused the crash, not the rider.
The linkage between the handlebars and the seat malfuntioned, causing the machine to proceed directly to the crash site. Almost uncanny how it managed to center punch that utility pole... what are the odds?

Another factor, as related elsewhere in PL that should not have been news to anyone over age 30- younger riders will pick themselves up, call for a pickup, and go home; older riders will hope the ambulance gets there before they die. Talking to a state traffic safety wonk, they tell me that crash vs. fatality rates can nearly be tied to distance (more accurately, timei) EMS response.

dwoodward screwed with this post 02-13-2013 at 09:08 AM Reason: more edits, more edits, more edits...
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:30 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post

I am amused (and annoyed) by the statement in the article that It shows a complete lack of knowledge on said researcher's part about motorcycles and riding, and causes me to question any conclusions she may have reached. Bigger bikes may indeed be a factor, but thinking that "rolling or turning over" is a cause is just ignorance.
That was someone else's work, there's a citation in the original article.

Cite: Dischinger PC, Ryb GE, Ho SM, et al. Injury patterns and severity among hospitalized motorcyclists: a comparison of younger and older riders. Annu Proc Assoc Adv Automot Med 2006;50:23749. pubmed link




Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
(Plus my own pet peeve is triggered of calling that a "theory", when it doesn't even qualify as a hypothesis, much less an actual theory. A theory is something that has been thoroughly investigated and a high level of support, and is very likely to be true. A half-assed hunch is not a theory.)

PhilB

The word "Theory" does not exist in the original paper, so if you read it somewhere with your own eyes, a journalist said it.

The exact text of the paragraph where she cited that paper:

"Our finding that severity of injury increases with age is consistent with other research on the topic. Other smaller, non-national studies which compared hospitalised adults aged 40 and older,8 ,9 or those aged 55 and older,10 with younger age groups found an increase in severity in relation to age. Our study expanded upon previous research, examining an older age group, those 60 and older, and found that injury severity among those aged 60 and above was significantly higher than both that of individuals aged 2039 years and those aged 4059 years. We also explored rates of hospitalisation by age and found the oldest group was most likely to be hospitalised for their injuries. This provides further evidence that it is important to understand the risk of severe injury to older riders."


Other two cites from that paragraph:

↵ Dischinger PC, Ryb GE, Ho SM, et al. The association between age, injury, and survival to hospital among a cohort of injured motorcyclists. Annu Proc Assoc Adv Automot Med 2007;51:97110.
↵ Talving P, Teixeira PGR, Barmparas G, et al. Motorcycle-related injuries: effect of age on type and severity of injuries and mortality. J Trauma 2010;68:4416.
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Old 02-13-2013, 12:47 PM   #8
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Recently divorced middle aged men watch "Wild Hogs" and "Son's of Anarchy" and go out and buy themselves a bottle of Viagra, an 800 lb Harley, a tough looking t-shirt/bandana/sunglass combo and ride plum straight thru the first highway speed corner that they come to and die badly. That's all those numbers are.

An almost equal amount do the same thing on four wheelers.
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:13 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ph0rk View Post
That was someone else's work, there's a citation in the original article.

Cite: Dischinger PC, Ryb GE, Ho SM, et al. Injury patterns and severity among hospitalized motorcyclists: a comparison of younger and older riders. Annu Proc Assoc Adv Automot Med 2006;50:237–49. pubmed link

The word "Theory" does not exist in the original paper, so if you read it somewhere with your own eyes, a journalist said it.

The exact text of the paragraph where she cited that paper:

"Our finding that severity of injury increases with age is consistent with other research on the topic. Other smaller, non-national studies which compared hospitalised adults aged 40 and older,8 ,9 or those aged 55 and older,10 with younger age groups found an increase in severity in relation to age. Our study expanded upon previous research, examining an older age group, those 60 and older, and found that injury severity among those aged 60 and above was significantly higher than both that of individuals aged 20–39 years and those aged 40–59 years. We also explored rates of hospitalisation by age and found the oldest group was most likely to be hospitalised for their injuries. This provides further evidence that it is important to understand the risk of severe injury to older riders."


Other two cites from that paragraph:

↵ Dischinger PC, Ryb GE, Ho SM, et al. The association between age, injury, and survival to hospital among a cohort of injured motorcyclists. Annu Proc Assoc Adv Automot Med 2007;51:97–110.
↵ Talving P, Teixeira PGR, Barmparas G, et al. Motorcycle-related injuries: effect of age on type and severity of injuries and mortality. J Trauma 2010;68:441–6.
The abuse of the word "theory" was almost certainly a journalistic fail; I didn't say otherwise. It's just a thing that bugs me, and was in the linked article about the study.

The sentence used quotes around the phrase “which may be more likely to roll or turn over,” and attributed the quote to the lead researcher of the study "Tracy L. Jackson, a graduate student in the epidemiology department at Brown University". If the quote was not really a quote, then the journalist is again at fault. If, OTOH, Ms. Jackson actually did say that to the journalist and that is a direct quote, then my point stands -- she doesn't have an adequate understanding of the subject.

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