If I had a dollar

[Mr_Snips]

Originally Posted by corndog67

Wrong. It isn't the suspension. It's the size and weight they carry. I'd say most of them are pushing 600lbs or more full of gas and with a bunch of stuff bolted onto them. They call them Adventure Bikes. What they are, is street bikes with high handlebars. I notice the BMW guys are all butthurt, and saying that they do this, they do that. You can do all this shit on a ZX-10, a 69 CB750, a moped, and everything else. I believe the original posters intent was that people are getting hurt, shit, some of them are probably even getting killed, because they think they are on dirt bikes. They are not dirt bikes. Remember the old days when all you had was a step-through 90? You got that fucker everywhere. If you really tried, you could get an Escalade most anywhere, but the point was, some people are falling for the marketing "I'm an Adventurer", and I'm helping the accessories manufacturers send their kids to Stanford by buying all this stuff that makes my bike an Adventure Bike.

I was at our local dealer a while back, and I saw some guy refer to a Triumph Explorer as a "dirtbike". It isn't any more dirtbike than a G/S. A worthy streetbike, comfortable, wind protection, bags and whatnot, but I just can't imagine laying underneath any of those fuckers on the side of a hill somewhere.

If you really want to boogie off road, get a dirt bike. I've got both, I used to have an XR650L, but even that was too big to really get it on in the dirt.

If you really think you can get a zx10 the same places a gsa or ktm adv bike will go you are crazy. They are not dirtbikes, i dont think anyone here will argue that a GSA will keep up with a dirtbike through whoops or anything like that...but you can most certaintly get through the whoops with no issues on a GSA. You can climb hills like a dirtbike but not as quickly and you will need to be a little more prudent with line choice. But to say a zx10 is just as capable as a GSA is naive

[1911fan]

I had a 990 Adventure for a few years, rode it places I shouldn't have. At foolhardy speeds. It spit me off a few times, not too expensively for either of us. As i got more familiar with it, I pushed it harder offroad.
I have to agree with the above posters on both sides of the argument. Big ADV bikes can go a lot of places- it's largely dependent on the rider, though. Is it a small flickable dirt bike like a YZ 250? Hell no. Is it big and full of dangerous kinetic energy, on or off-road? Hell yes.
I sold my 990 because I'm 55 and my motocross racing is a long ways back. My brain says, "Yah! Go for it!" and my body says "WTF? No way!" I had days when I was a beat behind the big beast, and realized that it was a matter of time before it bit me. You can't run 70-90mph down Forest Circus roads indefinitely without incident.
Bottom line, I think, it's more Indian than arrow. A good rider can flog a big bike across all kinds of terrain.


1911fan

[corndog67]

Originally Posted by Mr_Snips

If you really think you can get a zx10 the same places a gsa or ktm adv bike will go you are crazy. They are not dirtbikes, i dont think anyone here will argue that a GSA will keep up with a dirtbike through whoops or anything like that...but you can most certaintly get through the whoops with no issues on a GSA. You can climb hills like a dirtbike but not as quickly and you will need to be a little more prudent with line choice. But to say a zx10 is just as capable as a GSA is naive

I didn't say a ZX was just as capable. My point was the G/S was such a NON dirt bike, that it wouldn't be much more difficult to get a ZX-10 the same places, it's 100 lbs lighter. Also, I pointed out, that an old S90 Honda could get to the same places. You G/S guys get all bunched up about this shit, but it's absolutely true. A G/S is a good street bike. But a bad dirt bike. Same as a ZX-10. Or a step through 90. Or a CB350. You can make any of those go plenty of places, but not comfortably, and certainly not anywhere near as fast a real dirt bike, but with plenty more danger.

One thing I'm not is naive. I'd be willing to bet I could get as many places on a Honda 90 or ZX-10 as most people could get on their G/S. Remember, not everyone is a Dakar rider, in fact, very, very few even take theirs off the road,

[Ceri JC]

Likewise, if I had a dollar for every time someone has told me, "you won't get that big bike through there", only for me to prove them wrong...

Originally Posted by corndog67

One thing I'm not is naive. I'd be willing to bet I could get as many places on a Honda 90 or ZX-10 as most people could get on their G/S. Remember, not everyone is a Dakar rider, in fact, very, very few even take theirs off the road,

Hit me up if you're ever in the UK. I'd love to film your attempts at some of the hillclimbs I can do on my F800GS on a ZX-10.
Warning: Mine has been the hard way round the Dusk to Dawn Enduro course.

Oh and I have followed Dakar riders on GSAs, plenty of times. I used to struggle to keep them in sight when I was on a G450X. They can get these bikes plenty of places most mere mortals would struggle to get a 400EXC.

The only legitimate reasons I can see for riders of smaller bikes to get pissed off with me trail riding a large bike is if:
A) The pace is fast and the big bike (rider) is repeatedly significantly slowing them down. If I'm on a bigger bike, I make a point of trying to ride with n00bs, or people who are actively out for a 'bimble' as opposed to an unlicenced race; I don't like to be the one holding people up.
B) When the big bike is slowing them down, the rider doesn't have the courtesy to choose to bypass some of the harder sections and meet up with them later, or, if the whole route turns out to be beyond their abilities, to go home. I was out with people on proper dirt bikes in the snow a few weekends ago. It reached a point where it became apparent my bike wasn't going to get over the top of the mountain. I went home and they carried on; everyone was happy.

As to injury? Yes, getting hit by 120KG is preferable to getting hit by 200KG. The thing to remember though is that'll you'll usually be going considerably slower on a big bike. Getting hit by 200KG at 25mph is preferable to getting hit by 120KG at 50mph.

Don't get me wrong, I was wetting myself laughing at the chap on a GSA with knobby tyres, who clearly couldn't ride offroad, struggling to get out of a muddy field at a winter rally last weekend. It's just that we're not all like him.

[Yossarian™]

Originally Posted by Mr_Snips

If you really think you can get a zx10 the same places a gsa or ktm adv bike will go you are crazy.

Okay, not a ZX-10, but rather a Yamaha R1.

[Disco Stu]

Originally Posted by JimVonBaden

The Adventure model has more ground clearance. Really, other than that, it is actually less capable than a standard GS, IMHO, because of weight and bulk.

Charlie and Ewan were fools in the way they overloaded their bikes, and admitted it! You have to admit though, they got good at picking them up!

Jim

Doesn't the ADV also have a lower first gear?

[JimVonBaden]

Originally Posted by Disco Stu

Doesn't the ADV also have a lower first gear?

The 1200 does on the most recent models. I do not believe it did when the Long Way Down was made.

Jim

[OrangeYZ]

Originally Posted by 1911fan

Bottom line, I think, it's more Indian than arrow. A good rider can flog a big bike across all kinds of terrain.
1911fan

Yeah, but the Indian who thinks a 4 pound spear should be used in the same manner as a 4 ounce arrow is a moron. If he puts that spear onto his bow, he shouldn't act surprised when it shoots all of 15 feet and flops to the ground like a 1200GS half a mile into the Baja 1000.
And when he stalks to within 15 feet of a buffalo to throw his arrow at it only to watch it bounce off, hopefully somebody is getting video of the immediate stomping.

[everetto]

Good thread, and it brings home some good points for me. I grew up on dirt bikes, and I was pretty much indestructible as most young kids are. I did some desert racing also, and did pretty well (8th in a class of 125 riders). As an adult there was a long period when I did not have a bike and about a year ago I bought my first bike in years - a big (heavy) ADV bike. For some reason I figured that the passing of time had altered the laws of physics, and that good engineering would allow a new big bike to perform like a dirt bike. I found out immediately that my head was completely in the wrong place. It spit me off several times HARD in the sand. I am set in my ways, but figured out pretty quickly that with a heavy bike the front tire will always dig in in sand and down you go.

All I had to do was re-level my expectations. I still want an ADV bike but I plan on using it in a different manner. I will ride with my buds on several hundred miles of slab to the mountains of Colorado, and we will be doing some of the passes up there, presumably with the requisite care. It will be great, both the tarmac and the offroad. I will keep reminding myself that I am not on a dirt bike.

I also REALLY want to buy a KTM 500 EXC.....

p.s. there is no suspension in the universe that can make a heavy bike handle like a light bike

[Falconx84]

Originally Posted by SlipChip

That was Javarilla! Famous thread it is...

link to thread... off to read it now
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23414

[NJ-Brett]

My friends and I grew up mostly taking unsutable bikes places they should not go, if it had wheels on it, we went everywhere and into everything on it.
And I still have no problem doing stuff like that at age 54, if I get tired, I slow down or stop and take a break.
Its not hard for me to ride a pig in the dirt, its just that you can get hurt very badly doing it.
You can do it, its fun, but its not smart if you have to be at work on Monday.

[Dracus124]

Those BMWs may go 0-60 in less than four seconds, but I can treat my Honda like a true dirt bike and it never misses a beat. and I can keep up with a CRF450R all day, and then its right back on the pavement and the worse thing about that is I don't a nice windshield.

I could do it, ride a big ADV bike off road, but I wouldn't. I'll have more fun on my XL

[Tex76]

It's all about what you have fun with. The speed you ride should match your bike, the terrain and the individuals true riding ability (not the ability we think we have after a couple ). I love taking my big bike off road, granted its not single track, but its a lot more adventerous than the inside of my office! And thats why I ride, to detach, to recharge, to search out a little peace. Every rider is different therefore every ride is different, if we all find what were looking for out on two wheels, the world becomes a better place . All that being said, if I ever see you in the rearview of my GSA, I'll shoot a friendly wave as I pull away

[ShaftEd]

It's not just a matter of being able to get through the off road sections, but actually having a good time while doing it. I've got both a 12GS and a Suzuki DR350. Both have been to Baja and on many of the same dirt sections. While I can "get through" many of sandy roads on the Beemer, it aint much fun. You're just surviving and hoping for the end. On the DR, I'm having a blast, enjoying the dirt. Big difference.

You know, not only the bikes, but also the loading down of the monsters. Seems we modern adv types can't go anywhere without bringing everything including the kitchen sink. One main thing I've learned in my Baja trips? Pack light! These triple aluminum bag setups, fully loaded plus panniers hanging off the tank, crash bars everywhere( a self fulfilling prophecy?), huge windscreens. I mean it's Baja, how much gear do you need when off the bike. Maybe a pair of swim trunks and flip flops. Keep it light while off road unless you're going to Tierra Del Fuego or some other mega trip.

This was my luggage for a week in Baja. Looks like packing light didn't help much here though. Shoulda had the little bike.
[IMG] Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/IMG]

[corndog67]

The video proves a point. It isn't the bike, it's the guy riding it. Sjaak has some serious skills and serious balls too.

Originally Posted by Yossarian™

Okay, not a ZX-10, but rather a Yamaha R1.