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Old 03-03-2013, 09:43 PM   #316
Going_Commando
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Originally Posted by adam_c_eckhardt View Post
What argument? I only have loud discussions.

We're going with a generator at some point- just don't know when, and it will be propane. Doesn't code say that if you have an automatic transfer switch that the generator has to be able to power EVERYTHING in the house? Just curious.

We pre-wired for the hot tub today. Not that we can afford one but at least we can plug one in. Also got the well wired up and was happy to see water for the first time. We're getting close to being done with the rough-in wiring. A few nights this week and we should have it.

After the plumber does his thing I'm going to pre-plumb for central vacuum.

The AV guy continued wiring today (he likes working weekends when the rest of the crew isn't around.)
Shoot me the square footage, what you'll have for AC, and how deep your well is (roughly) and I will shoot you the info for how big a generator you need to do a whole house transfer switch, and give you a couple other options too.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:15 AM   #317
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We're going with a generator at some point- just don't know when, and it will be propane. Doesn't code say that if you have an automatic transfer switch that the generator has to be able to power EVERYTHING in the house? Just curious.

you can wire the transfer switch to an emergency panel, those items you wish to use when the power is out. Meets code and allows you to use smaller generator.
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:25 AM   #318
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:39 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by Going_Commando View Post
Shoot me the square footage, what you'll have for AC, and how deep your well is (roughly) and I will shoot you the info for how big a generator you need to do a whole house transfer switch, and give you a couple other options too.
Roughly 2200 square feet finished. 2800 total.
Well pump is about 450 feet down.
30 amp wall oven
gas cooktop
AC is off a double pole 20 amp
Don't forget the hot tub.
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Old 03-05-2013, 11:25 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by adam_c_eckhardt View Post
Roughly 2200 square feet finished. 2800 total.
Well pump is about 450 feet down.
30 amp wall oven
gas cooktop
AC is off a double pole 20 amp
Don't forget the hot tub.
Soo, after doing a bunch of calcs, and figuring pricing versus fuel consumption/hr, buy a 20KW (forget the hot tub on the generator). I didn't realize you had an electric oven before, and load shedding just the AC doesn't really save you enough $$ to mention with the oven in the picture. I figured it was gas, and that thing is a power hog. The load calc for your house comes out to 19,820VA, which equates to 19.8kW, or 83A. If you had gone with a gas oven, and slapped the AC on a load shed module, you could get away with a 10 or 12kW generator, hence why I mentioned 10kW earlier. The Kohler 20kW should only set you back about another $500 over a Generac 20kW, and with that in mind I would go Kohler 6 days a week and twice on Sunday. An Onan 20kW (Cat's ass, bee's knees, Cadillac, etc) is going to cost about $1000 more than the Kohler, but even that, in my opinion, is worth it in every way. When I get my own place in the sticks, it is going to have an Onan for backup power. I have worked on several Onans that are 20, 30, 40, 50 years old, and are still purring along like kittens (really big, noisy kittens ).

Engine work on a Generac is a test in patience and fortitude, so if your Generac needs to be worked on outside of warranty, it is going to be pricey as hell. The Kohler is still easier to take apart than a Generac, but neither can touch the Onan. It looks like Onan hopped on the V-Twin bandwagon, which is really too bad. Their older residential standby generators were boxer twins, and were an absolute breeze to work on. Here are some spec sheets for you to peruse:
Onan:http://www.cumminsonan.com/www/html/...ets/a-1555.pdf
Kohler:http://kohlerpower.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/g4209.pdf
Generac: http://www.generac.com/Brochures/0193260SBY.pdf

If you want, I can PM you some prices, but I am not going to put them up in the public domain for obvious reasons.
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Old 03-05-2013, 01:21 PM   #321
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Originally Posted by Going_Commando View Post
Soo, after doing a bunch of calcs, and figuring pricing versus fuel consumption/hr, buy a 20KW (forget the hot tub on the generator). I didn't realize you had an electric oven before, and load shedding just the AC doesn't really save you enough $$ to mention with the oven in the picture. I figured it was gas, and that thing is a power hog. The load calc for your house comes out to 19,820VA, which equates to 19.8kW, or 83A. If you had gone with a gas oven, and slapped the AC on a load shed module, you could get away with a 10 or 12kW generator, hence why I mentioned 10kW earlier. The Kohler 20kW should only set you back about another $500 over a Generac 20kW, and with that in mind I would go Kohler 6 days a week and twice on Sunday. An Onan 20kW (Cat's ass, bee's knees, Cadillac, etc) is going to cost about $1000 more than the Kohler, but even that, in my opinion, is worth it in every way. When I get my own place in the sticks, it is going to have an Onan for backup power. I have worked on several Onans that are 20, 30, 40, 50 years old, and are still purring along like kittens (really big, noisy kittens ).

Engine work on a Generac is a test in patience and fortitude, so if your Generac needs to be worked on outside of warranty, it is going to be pricey as hell. The Kohler is still easier to take apart than a Generac, but neither can touch the Onan. It looks like Onan hopped on the V-Twin bandwagon, which is really too bad. Their older residential standby generators were boxer twins, and were an absolute breeze to work on. Here are some spec sheets for you to peruse:
Onan:http://www.cumminsonan.com/www/html/...ets/a-1555.pdf
Kohler:http://kohlerpower.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/g4209.pdf
Generac: http://www.generac.com/Brochures/0193260SBY.pdf

If you want, I can PM you some prices, but I am not going to put them up in the public domain for obvious reasons.
20KW eh? At least you and I can share a laugh over that!

Thanks for the info Jeff. I REALLY appreciate it. And I'd be curious as to how the numbers would pan out- if you shoot me some numbers (NO RUSH) that'd be great.

Let me know what kind of beer you like and I'll have some waiting for you next time you visit.
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:42 PM   #322
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Just go with the gas fired hot tub
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Old 03-05-2013, 04:48 PM   #323
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Just go with the gas fired hot tub
Ordered $1000 worth of circuit breakers today (damn arc fault breakers!). Only hot tub I'll be seeing anytime soon is a free one!
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:25 PM   #324
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Ordered $1000 worth of circuit breakers today (damn arc fault breakers!). Only hot tub I'll be seeing anytime soon is a free one!
I learned about those at my last job. Imagine trying to explain how come a breaker costs $1000 All I can add is hopefully, the electrician knows how to install them properly.
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:35 PM   #325
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I learned about those at my last job. Imagine trying to explain how come a breaker costs $1000 All I can add is hopefully, the electrician knows how to install them properly.
Well they're about $37 a piece but I need 19 of them. Throw in a handful of standard single pole 20 amp, a few double poles, etc, and it'll be pushing a grand.

Yeah I'm pretty sure the electrician knows how to install them. Someday maybe the panel manufacturers will make a panel that has grounding bars and neutral bars on BOTH sides.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:41 PM   #326
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Well they're about $37 a piece but I need 19 of them. Throw in a handful of standard single pole 20 amp, a few double poles, etc, and it'll be pushing a grand.

Yeah I'm pretty sure the electrician knows how to install them. Someday maybe the panel manufacturers will make a panel that has grounding bars and neutral bars on BOTH sides.
Did you not see the grounding bars for sale at home depot and all the extra drilled and tapped holes in the back of the panel enclosure?
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:14 PM   #327
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The thing that pisses me off about the AFCI breakers is the failure rate. The ones that we've put in remodels 4-5 years ago are starting to trip for no reason more and more often. I'm not a fan of AFCI and tamper proof receptacle requirements.
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Old 03-06-2013, 12:27 AM   #328
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The thing that pisses me off about the AFCI breakers is the failure rate. The ones that we've put in remodels 4-5 years ago are starting to trip for no reason more and more often. I'm not a fan of AFCI and tamper proof receptacle requirements.
Check to make sure the grounding conductor isn't touching the neutral screws on receptacles. I had an AFCI circuit that kept tripping, and that ended up being the problem. When installing 150 receptacles in a dwelling, this can happen.
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Old 03-06-2013, 03:31 AM   #329
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Did you not see the grounding bars for sale at home depot and all the extra drilled and tapped holes in the back of the panel enclosure?
Shadddup.

I'm going to design the perfect panel and laugh all the way to the bank.
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Old 03-07-2013, 08:35 AM   #330
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Shadddup.

I'm going to design the perfect panel and laugh all the way to the bank.
Siemens can and neutral layout, and square-d QO breakers. You're welcome
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