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Old 03-22-2013, 07:14 AM   #16
Offcamber
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseblood View Post
You need MUCH more practice! A more artful bit of sarcasm might have been:
"Thank you! I'm so glad someone started a thread about helmet laws. It's about time."
At very least:
"Oh, goody! A thread about helmet laws!"
Keep at it. You'll get the swing of it, eventually.




Oh, goody! Someone has alerted us to the dangers of the "slippery slope!" I'm so glad you brought that up. It's about time.

It's SOO realistic an argument against helmet laws. I mean... helmet laws actually save lives. And, even though nobody in the US has ever gotten anywhere, ever with an ACTUAL law to ban motorcycles, we shouldn't take a chance because in hypothetical-world it COULD happen.

Ok hows this....a liberal from New York....now that is rare...

But since your point is about saving lives by your own argument anything considered dangerous should be outlawed??

Let me guess big supporter of the 6 round magazine law your forwarding thinking state passed?

I'm waiting for "how much it cost tax payers" argument to start...



Nobody will argue your safer with a helmet than without but its still personal choice...your life your choice.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:17 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Save your own life and keep your laws OFF my person.

Laws banning abortions safe more lives... Are you against abortion as well?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Offcamber View Post
Ok hows this....a liberal from New York....now that is rare...

But since your point is about saving lives by your own argument anything considered dangerous should be outlawed??

Let me guess big supporter of the 6 round magazine law your forwarding thinking state passed?

I'm waiting for "how much it cost tax payers" argument to start...



Nobody will argue your safer with a helmet than without but its still personal choice...your life your choice.



Let it be known that I tried to keep this thread out of the basement as long as I could.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:22 AM   #18
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Simply put, it's survival of the fittest. If you're not smart enough to protect your head, you'll face the consequences.

I remember being 16, and my brother was 18. In WI, helmets are optional if you're over 18. We were just going to run into town quick on our CX500s. My brother, not having to wear a helmet was looking for his sunglasses since his bike had no windshield and eye protection was mandatory. We were in a hurry, he couldn't find his glasses, so he threw on the full face helmet at the last minute.

50' from the house, his back tire slides on gravel that was on the road. He high sides and gets slammed into the road as his bike flips over him. The back of his head was the first thing to hit the road. Happened 20' in front of me.

He did break his foot, but if he had found his glasses, I have no doubt in my mind that he'd be dead.

I don't care that 90% of the cruiser riders out here in IA don't ever wear a helmet - that's their choice. I always wear mine.
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Old 03-22-2013, 07:54 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by gravityisnotmyfriend View Post
I remember being 16, and my brother was 18. In WI, helmets are optional if you're over 18. We were just going to run into town quick on our CX500s. My brother, not having to wear a helmet was looking for his sunglasses since his bike had no windshield and eye protection was mandatory. We were in a hurry, he couldn't find his glasses, so he threw on the full face helmet at the last minute.

50' from the house, his back tire slides on gravel that was on the road. He high sides and gets slammed into the road as his bike flips over him. The back of his head was the first thing to hit the road. Happened 20' in front of me.

He did break his foot, but if he had found his glasses, I have no doubt in my mind that he'd be dead.



That is a heck of a story. I'm glad he was ok!


We've all participated in these threads before. On the pro side of the helmet law argument you have:

On the con side you have:
  • It's about freedom.
  • They'll ban motorcycles (and other dangerous things) next.


I find it very telling that nobody (or nearly nobody) nowadays makes a serious argument that helmet laws (and helmets) do NOT save lives. The argument is always "I've got mine, so who cares about teh stupid?"

That's a valid point worth discussing. Should we care at all about people too stupid to hear a helmet?

I don't find arguments about "societal costs of health care" compelling, so I won't even go there. My argument in favor of caring about others is more along the lines of "more people alive is better than more people dead." I'm not religious, but I do recall there is a bit about "I am my brother's keeper" which might apply, too, if such is your disposition.

Now, about the banning of the motorcycles: It would never happen. Come to me with a link to a proposed law banning motorcycles which went anywhere, and I'll listen. But, in general, hypotheticals about slippery slopes are entirely unconvincing.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:03 AM   #20
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The magical NC legislature is talking about removing the helmet law here.

All I wonder about is whether or not riders without a helmet will be fatigued or have random bugs in their eyes and thus more prone to fucking up. The first few riders that slam into minivans full of kids will get us all blamed for it.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:07 AM   #21
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Why not just work to educate the "stupid" people rather than having the government force good judgement on them.

Many of the people I ride with don't wear helmets or I should say they didn't. I always wear one and usually have on my Aerostich suit....helmet gloves boots and jacket a minimum...sometimes I will wear jeans instead riding pants....blasphemy I know.

Over the course of one season several of these helmet-less riders have started wearing helmets and a few others have commented that this season they are going to start....why? because they see me put the gear on every ride....no matter how hot it is...or "uncool" I may look.

I took plenty of ribbing but I just shrug my shoulders and say I value my life and skin....but its your right to be stupid with yours....
It obviously had an effect...
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:14 AM   #22
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increase cannot be attributed to the helmet law

there has been a variation from year to year that is higher than 18%
http://publications.michigantrafficc...011/10yr_9.pdf

more likely due to weather, and more people riding more miles
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:21 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farmerstu View Post
whats wrong with the water in that city that makes them want to control every aspect of everyone elses lives?
Why should I pay more for insurance because of some fools lack of common sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Offcamber View Post

Its not about how many lives it saves its about Government restrictions....how many lives would be saved if they just outlawed motorcycles all together??
AFAIC, It's more about the high(er) cost of insurance premiums that everyone else has to pay because of these folks "freedom of choice" to become layed up in a hospital for a few weeks, incapacitated for months and or a vegetable for the rest of their life.
$20,000 policy? A freakin drop in the bucket for a serious accident with head injuries.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:25 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Offcamber View Post
Let me guess big supporter of the 6 round magazine law your forwarding thinking state passed?

Cool! A gun thread. I don't think that's ever been covered on ADVrider.


I'm waiting for "how much it cost tax payers" argument to start...

It just did.

its still personal choice...your life your choice.
Not when it affects others lives and insurance premiums.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:28 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by wiseblood View Post

  • They'll ban motorcycles (and other dangerous things) next.



There sure are a lot of folks afraid of the "govment" coming for everything they own...


Pssst. Hes looking for black helicopters.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:39 AM   #26
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Not when it affects others lives and insurance premiums.

Can you show the study that proves that??

So now that the insurance argument has reared its head we can counter with....what about all the people who smoke drink alcohol and eat to much fatty foods??? They drive your insurance premium up higher than any helmet-less motorcyclist.

In fact someone involved in a serious crash with out a helmet is more likely to die than live many years with a debilitating injury. The injured rider will probably cost more in the long run. This theory has been proven with smokers....they die earlier than non smokers thus not costing as much in health care cost in their old age.

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Old 03-22-2013, 08:47 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by wiseblood View Post

Now, about the banning of the motorcycles: It would never happen. Come to me with a link to a proposed law banning motorcycles which went anywhere, and I'll listen. But, in general, hypotheticals about slippery slopes are entirely unconvincing.
Slippery slopes exist. They just take a lot more time and are not as steep as some assume. Take smoking for example. In the mid-70's, if you had suggested banning smoking in all restaurants, airplanes and all indoor workplaces, people would have called you an extremist. The anti-smoking lobby didn't start with proposing $1.00 per pack taxes. They started small. They suggested requiring non-smoking sections on airplanes and restaurants. They created a logical argument as to why this was good policy. They then used that accepted logic to move to the next step. Then the next and the next. Once the basic logic is accepted, it gets easier to move to the next step.

If saving lives is the only goal, then all manner of human activity can be targeted in the name of that goal. Because of this, my goal is not caught up in saving lives. It is promotion of freedom. Freedom means you may have to live (or die) with the consequences of your choices freedom has granted you.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:52 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Offcamber View Post
Why not just work to educate the "stupid" people rather than having the government force good judgement on them.

.....

I took plenty of ribbing but I just shrug my shoulders and say I value my life and skin....but its your right to be stupid with yours....
It obviously had an effect...

In NY and NJ, violation of the helmet law is no-points, and a $20 fine ("equipment violation"). When considering the risk / consequence of not wearing a helmet, doesn't the risk / consequence of a $20 fine seem... kinda small?

I'm just saying... if someone strongly does not want to wear a helmet, why are they letting the risk of being caught (moderately small), the consequence of which is a $20 fine (tiny) stop them? Compared to the risk of getting seriously injured and killed in a crash (75% of which are caused by other drivers), the fine seems inconsequential.

Even tiny fines, however, might ever-so-slightly tilt the table towards smarter behavior. In other words, make it easier to act smartly, and a little more difficult to act stupidly. Shouldn't smart actions be less difficult than dumb ones?

And, if an 18 year old kid (an age not generally known for wisdom, or strength in the face of dumbshit friends) is given a tool with which he can do what makes him feel safer, while saving face ("Guys -- I'm not a pussy. I just can't risk another ticket"), then why not?
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:52 AM   #29
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loud pipes

Get a Ural, it is proven fact that loud gears save lives!
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:59 AM   #30
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Can you show the study that proves that??

So now that the insurance argument has reared its head we can counter with....what about all the people who smoke drink alcohol and eat to much fatty foods??? They drive your insurance premium up higher than any helmet-less motorcyclist.

In fact someone involved in a serious crash with out a helmet is more likely to die than live many years with a debilitating injury. The injured rider will probably cost more in the long run. This theory has been proven with smokers....they die earlier than non smokers thus not costing as much in health care cost in their old age.

Produce a study that disproves my statement.

Answer this question...who pays for uninsured patients hospital bills?

Regarding smokers not costing as much...how much do they cost while they are in and out of hospitals, clinics, etc., while they are still breathing? You know, before they die early.
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