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Old 03-22-2013, 11:10 AM   #46
single
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duck View Post
RE: Darwinism.

Guess what? Your chances of suffering a fatality riding with a helmet are much greater than your doing so while driving a cage. Is that Darwin in action too?

If you truly believe in Darwinism then sell your fucking bike!
Exactly right. It amazes me how people can get so self righteous over this issue and so easily call other riders idiots all the while hiding behind pseudo intellectual nonsense to stand on their soap box.

If increasing your risk is darwinism, ride the bus, or better yet, never leave the house.

And while we are cherry picking numbers to prove our points how about this:

http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx

From 1994 to 2005 more non-motorist pedestrians were killed then motorcyclists. Better start lobbying for those pedestrian helmet laws guys.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:17 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by It'sNotTheBike View Post
Spineless losers in the U.K. have allowed such
garbage to be rammed down their throats, but not all Americans
are going to passively sit by and allow the same to be done to them.
There are far, FAR more motorcycles on the roads in Europe than in the US, so they must know a thing or two...
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:17 AM   #48
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not sure what Darwin has to do with helmets and living or not, if his theories applied, we'd have thicker skulls and not need helmets
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:25 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by It'sNotTheBike View Post
But one thing is certain : most of the rest
of the US is not interested in being told what is
good for them by some sanctimonious tool
from New York ( you or Bloomberg ). Some people are
stupid and nanny state bs is not ever going to change
that. They will ride without helmets and drink large sodas filled with
sugar and some of them will die as a result. And what exactly is it that
makes you think it is your business to try to change that ? You're just
making yourself known as a busybody fool by posting such pointless
nanny state ideas. Your own life must be pathetically sad and empty if this
is the best thing you can come up with to post on an internet forum.


Don't worry about my reputation. I'll be just fine.

For the last three+ years I've been involved in motorcycle advocacy in NY. (NYMSTF.org ) Our group has lobbied the city (NYC) and state (NY) on behalf of motocyclists. I've met with the community boards in NYC to promote motorcycle issues so many times that eventually I was asked to become a member of their board.

So, you could say I'm a bit more interested in this issue than some people.

If you're not interested in this issue, feel free to find another thread to ramble in. It's a free country. Busy-bodies like you shouldn't be telling anyone else what they can and cannot talk about, anywhere they damn please.
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Old 03-22-2013, 11:54 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffy109 View Post
Slippery slopes exist. They just take a lot more time and are not as steep as some assume. Take smoking for example. In the mid-70's, if you had suggested banning smoking in all restaurants, airplanes and all indoor workplaces, people would have called you an extremist. The anti-smoking lobby didn't start with proposing $1.00 per pack taxes. They started small. They suggested requiring non-smoking sections on airplanes and restaurants. They created a logical argument as to why this was good policy. They then used that accepted logic to move to the next step. Then the next and the next. Once the basic logic is accepted, it gets easier to move to the next step...
I know you're just trying to make a point but the analogy with smoking is very poor. Someone else's choice not to wear a helmet while riding doesn't have a "second hand" impact on my health, nor make me and my clothes stink like an ashtray after a visit to a restaurant.

Smoking makes a much better analogy for phone usage while driving because that DOES affect other people. In one 30-mile drive yesterday I nearly had a collision with one phone-jammed-in-ear driver and was delayed by two texting drivers who sat at green lights until they went red again. I could hardly have cared less if I'd seen a helmetless motorcyclist go by, although I would have called them an idiot.
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:27 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slartidbartfast View Post
I know you're just trying to make a point but the analogy with smoking is very poor. Someone else's choice not to wear a helmet while riding doesn't have a "second hand" impact on my health, nor make me and my clothes stink like an ashtray after a visit to a restaurant.

Smoking makes a much better analogy for phone usage while driving because that DOES affect other people. In one 30-mile drive yesterday I nearly had a collision with one phone-jammed-in-ear driver and was delayed by two texting drivers who sat at green lights until they went red again. I could hardly have cared less if I'd seen a helmetless motorcyclist go by, although I would have called them an idiot.
Perhaps I wasn't totally clear. I am not comparing smoking with riding. Clearly there is a big difference that you correctly point out. My point was that those who poo-poo the slippery slope danger can look at this issue for a real example of how it works. It works over a long period of time in a very incremental way. Nobody in the 70's was calling for smoking to be banned. They would have been laughed out of the halls of congress. Today, things are a lot different and it is because of a consistent line of logic and each time they score a victory, they apply the same logic to the next incremental step.

It is this incrementalism that defines the slippery slope. If helmet laws save lives, then maybe requiring more gear will save more. We could save even more if we make a tiered license system. We could save more by limiting engine displacement. How about speed governors? Well golly... couldn't we save even more by just getting rid of them altogether? The logic doesn't change if you follow it to its conclusion.

Not realistic? Maybe not. But at what point do we stop on that logical progression? I would rather not try to justify why one thing is good yet the next step is bad. I would rather just argue that people are free to live (or die) with the consequences of their adult choices.
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:43 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Offcamber View Post
Can you show the study that proves that??

He can't because the insurance study found that it was almost a statistic wash.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:44 PM   #53
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I have a son who has a thick skull ,at least that's what all his teachers said.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:26 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
Yap, yap insurance study Yap, yap, yap.
Don't quit your day job...

Quote:
Because the uninsured usually have no regular doctor and limited access to prescription medications, they are more likely to be hospitalized for health conditions that could have been avoided.
Delaying care for fear of medical bills is a downward spiral that leads to ultimately higher health care costs for all of us. More than one third of uninsured adults reported they have problems paying their bills, which helps explain why many of the uninsured don't seek out the care they need until the last minute. But when an uninsured person is in crisis and cannot pay, that burden falls upon the insured population, the hospitals, the doctors and the government. And these billions of dollars of "uncompensated care" drive up health insurance premiums for everyone.
http://www.pbs.org/healthcarecrisis/uninsured.html


Or this...

Quote:
What is the price? Hospitalization and related medical expenses are higher for unhelmeted riders because of brain injuries. Here�s what the data tell us:
  • The average charge for inpatient care for motorcyclists who sustain a brain injury is more than twice the charge for motorcyclists receiving inpatient care for other injuries. 32
  • The average savings for prevented brain injuries in Hawaii, Maine, Missouri, New York, Pennsylvania, Utah, and Wisconsin was $15,000 in inpatient costs for each incident in the first year. 33
  • The average hospitalization costs for unhelmeted riders were one-third greater than those of helmeted riders ($7,208 to $5,852) in a study of Illinois-injured motorcyclists. 34


So who does pay the price? A large number of studies have focused on this issue and, although the percentages vary, one central point remains clear: whether as taxpayers or insurance customers or medical consumers, we all pay. For example,
  • A privately conducted California study put the average cost of hospital admissions for a non-helmeted rider at $17,704. Of this initial amount, 72 percent of the costs for hospitalization were paid by the State of California, with another 10 percent being paid by other tax-based sources.35
  • Another study found that 57 percent of the patients listed a government program as the principal payer of in-patient hospital costs resulting from motorcycle crashes.36
http://www.nhtsa.gov/people/injury/p...ike/costs.html

Generally speaking, any person who doesn't have insurance or adequate insurance will ultimately drive up the cost for everyone else, be it having no helmet in an accident, falling down steps in their house or jay walking across the street.


Where's your "insurance study" link Dakez???
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:33 PM   #55
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I took it as informational. State allows riders to choose, many choose not to wear helmets and die at an incread rate of 18%.

Choose what you like, but be informed.

Without this information it is hard to tell the real effects of helmetless riding. States like Florida have a higher number of deaths because helmets are optional, combined with a year round riding season.

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Old 03-22-2013, 02:36 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wiseblood View Post
Yup. Actually, to be more precise, the law says you still have to wear a helmet if:
  • ...you are under 21 years old
  • ...have less than 2 years riding experience
  • ...carry less than $20k health insurance policy

Nonetheless, these two things happened in the same year:
  1. Michigan repealed their existing helmet laws for riders not in the above categories. (Or "made it optional" if you prefer.)
  2. 18% more riders died
there might have been 18 percent more riders too
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:40 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by advNZer? View Post
there might have been 18 percent more riders too
So they all died? That is pretty unlikely!

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Old 03-22-2013, 02:40 PM   #58
single
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advNZer? View Post
there might have been 18 percent more riders too
There was also a 19% increase in fatalities from 2009 to 2010 with absolutely no change in the helmet laws:

http://publications.michigantrafficc...011/10yr_9.pdf

But since that doesn't advance anyone's agenda or high horse, we'll just sweep that data point under the rug?
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:43 PM   #59
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Whether law or not, I'm wearing the helmet. ever see someone land on their face wrecking a bicycle or skateboard?? yeah that aint gonna be me on a motorcycle.

If you don't want to wear a helmet, fine by me, but I ain't riding with ya! I've seen enough dead motorcyclists lying out on the road around here as it is. Thank god its law out here, too many dip shits.
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Old 03-22-2013, 02:49 PM   #60
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Dead people do not accrue hospital bills.

Lidless riders die more often than those wearing helmets and helmeted riders also sustain injuries... Thus negating the argument that it is an increased cost in medical bills that the Public/state picks up.

It was brought up and proved during the debates when Nevada was considering the new helmet mandate that there is no measurable increase in the cost to society.

Let those who ride decide.
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