Motorcycle Batteries .. AGM, GEL, Wet, Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4)

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by DARKRYDER

Hey Matt - which Shorai model are you using in your 990? So far, this battery cranks my bike like nobody's business and I will be field testing it in the coming months. Whatever weight I saved was added right back with the Rigid D2 LED fogs, lol.

Originally Posted by Newbusa

I used a LFX18A1-BS12 in mine, And was suprised at how long it would crank at full speed

Just purchased the same model for my 990 Superduke.

ah .. but at what temperatures?
and minor details but for how long?

when temps drops ... that's when actual amp hour capacities, not PB/EQ comes into play.

LiFePO4 at 14f AH capacity drops in half. don't forget your LFX18 actual AH is about 4.6AH, not 18AH. it's 18AH PB/EQ (lead acid equivalent) .. LiFePO4 warm up procedures requires amps flow to heat battery ... which lowers internal resistance, bringing back up LiFePO4's ability to deliver huge amps. above cold weather start procedure specific to LiFePO4 uses up amps ... assuming you've got a full charge, at a tiny 4.6AH ... your margin of error is slim indeed.

LiFePO4 is no different than any other battery in that when current draw goes up, actual amp hour capacities goes down.

this means if you only crank for say 1-2 second intervals .. your LFX18 will deliver a high number of crank cycles. but when you try to do extended 200amp cranks .. LFX18 will fall flat on it's face .. not because it's a bad battery. but because it's too small for the job!!!

for Starbuck duties .. IMHO LFX18 is still too small for 990 ... certainly not for real Adv duties to parts unknown. go with AGM or if you've got the $$$ ... use largest LiFePO4 you can stuff into available space.

don't forget Starbuck duties could include the dreaded .. Cold start, short ride with heated gear... don't be surprised if your 990 will not start the next morning at say 25f ...

Joel Wiseman, one of the most knowledgeable techs on Adv, did an excellent video on this very topic... more detailed info within this thread ..

[_cy_]

look at what just come in the door ... Optimate Lithium 12v LiFePO4 battery charger.

Optimate claims to be able to charge our motorcycle LiFePO4 batteries while balancing internal cells without balance ports.

If true .. this would be the ideal LiFePO4 charger, especially for batteries without balance ports and/or internal BMS. Which includes almost all LiFePO4 battery mfg except Earth-X. Shorai are equipped with balance ports but not BMS. (my Shorai LFX36 contains internal BMS and balance ports) Antigravity comes without internal BMS or external balance ports.

Getting ready to put Optimate to work charging up LiFePO4 batteries with cells purposely shunted into an unbalanced state.

More to come ....

note: All Earth-X batteries are built with an internal BMS (battery management system) which balances internal cells while providing overcharge protection to about 3amp.

[Bli55]

_cy,
More battery goodness!

REALLY Really interested in what you make of this "no need to think" charger as I'm considering getting one like it or something chunky with knobs to twist...

I know you are a big fan of Earth-X, however....one thing stopped me ordering one (let's skip over the fact that none would fit in the standart compartment) - yes, they are waterproof, but only to IP66.

Of cource, Antigravity don't provide exact info on their website (I assume IP66 or 67??), but at least they had one in a YTZ10-S case (BMW G650X) - decided on the larger 12 cell and will let you know how it gets on with battery duties...

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by Bli55

_cy,
More battery goodness!

REALLY Really interested in what you make of this "no need to think" charger as I'm considering getting one like it or something chunky with knobs to twist...

I know you are a big fan of Earth-X, however....one thing stopped me ordering one (let's skip over the fact that none would fit in the standart compartment) - yes, they are waterproof, but only to IP66.

Of cource, Antigravity don't provide exact info on their website (I assume IP66 or 67??), but at least they had one in a YTZ10-S case (BMW G650X) - decided on the larger 12 cell and will let you know how it gets on with battery duties...

yup .. just finished unpacking Optimate Lithium LiFePO4 Charger ... and heaven forbid, reading the instructions

more to come on Optimate ... you are not the only one wanting feedback on Optimate, which is a 12v LiFePO4 specific charger. designed to balance charge LiFePO4 batteries without balance ports.

yup a big fan of Earth-X and Antigravity .. both are watertight.. but most importantly, smaller sized LiFePo4 models are able to deliver impressive 200amp cranking performance!

really don't understand all this concern about how water tight a LiFePO4 battery is rated. for instance Shorai is not rated waterproof .. but as you can see in picture below... no bubbles are showing. I only dunked Shorai for about a minute and didn't do a dunk test with charging port open. No I didn't dunk Shorai for 20 minutes for the simple reason... even if I dropped my bike during a deep water crossing. there is no way I'm letting my bike remain underwater for very long. then if I really was worried about it... a dab of silicon grease would seal nicely.

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by LocuL

At last you joined with facts CY.

I dare to enter this thread with a question. i´ve lost my connection to buy an ETX36 battery. Does anyone know where to get it, either US or EU works for me.

CY - You convinced me that i needed the extra Ah. And starting my project with an Yasu14 in a cold shed i´m willing to spend the extra for the POWER. Just need a good source.

here's a picture of Earth-X ETX36 next to Shoria LFX36 .. both survived 200amp extended cranks with flying colors. Shorai LFX36 has survived a one year long term test with lots of 200+amp cold extended cranks. the jury is still out for Earth-X but it's looking pretty strong!

Earth-X ETX 36 is considerably smaller than LFX36 and water tight.

Originally Posted by Newbusa

Hey no problem cy,I tell it like it is. Will update when i get my new 18 Shorai for my 990SD. I know i should get more juice,But its all about cost per amp
And up in Canada these suckers are not cheap. I think the Shorai 18 is costing me 184 dollars ,How does that compare with the earth?

pretty darn $$$ expensive! that's why my recommendation is go with a quality AGM... unless saving weight is more important than $$$. then if one is actually riding to parts unknown with little to no support .. go with largest AH LiFePO4 battery one can stuff into space available.

HUGE $$ differences in what one can get away with using for LiFePO4. for instance someone that only rides from a heated garage with a lithium charger handy... that person can get by with a much smaller LiFePO4 battery. but there's a base size a 1,000cc class high compression motorcycle will need.

someone only riding during warm weather, again from a fully equipped garage. their needs are going to be different than someone riding a looong ways from support.

all those extended 200amp crank tests look extreme, until one factors in what usually gets downed bikes going again. lots of times hooking 12v directly to fuel injection pump, then banging on pump, while cranking and cranking... and cranking will get your bike running again. with a good chance once bike gets running again, problems will clear itself. vs a looonngg $$$ expensive trip to the dealership

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by mrdirtbikerider

A few months ago a got a Balistic LiFePO4 battery for my Ktm 950. I have been using a Battery Tender Jr on all my bikes for years but the BTJ isn't ever needed for the LiFePO4 battery. Voltage has Never dropped low enough for charger to come on.
I have read that LiFePO4 battery's need to be balanced from time to time.
What is a good quality but cheap charger that will do this?

I'm in the middle of doing tests for Optimate Lithium LiFePO4 charger. which claims to balance LiFePO4 batteries without balance ports.

have not gotten to point of testing un-balanced batteries yet. still testing LiFePO4 batteries that are in balance from 2.3AH to 20AH actual. with and without internal BMS

so far Optimate Lithium has done an impressive job!!! brought a LiFePO4 battery that barely registered .5v or completely dead back to life. that same battery is now reading 13.7v or fully charged. it probably will never have the same capacity again... but recovering a LiFePO4 battery from dead takes special algorithms.

more to come ....

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by vfxdog

Battery Tenders I have are from 2005 and 2007. All batteries hooked up long term to charger/maintainers were AGM, and all batteries started life with me new.

The issue I have encountered with leaving batteries on "tenders" long term is described in this article on Yuasa's own website

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/motor_battery.php

you are still lumping several different brands of battery tenders (chargers) as one. not all battery chargers are the same.

but at least we now know you are talking about AGM. which has a relatively low self discharge rate of 1%-3% per month. AGM does not need a battery tender (charger) for a few months storage. unless bike has a large parasitic drain.

AGM batteries if kept on a charger (tender) that does not terminate current after full charge condition is reached. that charger will eventually kill that AGM battery.

3 Stage Chargers

Bulk	14.2-14.4 volts
Acceptance	14.2-14.4 volts
Float	13.2-13.3 volts

Float Charging a Battery - Once an AGM battery is charged to 14.2-14.4v (full charge), it should be removed from the charger to avoid over charging. unless using a charger that reduces it's voltage down to 13.2-13.3v after full charge is reached and goes into float mode.

a battery begins to decay as soon as it is removed from the charger with a phenomenon call self discharge. Due to self discharge of batteries, they are always losing a certain percentage of power as they decay, just sitting there. A float charge won't overcharge the battery, but keeps it from decaying as it sits there too. Think of float charging as being similar to equalized water pressure in two pipes. Both pipes are at the same PSI, pushing water against one another. Should one leak, the other pushes water in it's place.

note above voltages are specific to AGM, not gel which should not be charged over 14.2v. Gel batteries need a specific charger or risk getting overcharged.

[veetwo _tls]

CY need some help please

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...7#post21097267

[AKohler883]

Subscribed

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by vfxdog

Battery Tenders I have are from 2005 and 2007. All batteries hooked up long term to charger/maintainers were AGM, and all batteries started life with me new.

The issue I have encountered with leaving batteries on "tenders" long term is described in this article on Yuasa's own website

("So, I can just set it and forget it, right? Well, not exactly. For one thing, you need to monitor the battery occasionally for correct fluid level (unless you own a sealed battery). Another problem is that of exercising the battery. Even if held at 13 volts, the unwavering voltage will allow the battery to eventually begin to sulfate. With most of these units, I recommend that you unplug the charger at least once every 60 days during seasonal storage. Allow the battery to rest for a couple of days, and then plug the charger in again. One charger that I’m aware of, the 1.5 amp Yuasa unit, has a feature found mainly on the aforementioned high priced RV chargers. It drops off the float charge and sends the battery through a complete new charge cycle every 28 days, thus eliminating the need to do that manually. There may be other motorcycle units that do that, but I’m not aware of any.")

http://www.yuasabatteries.com/motor_battery.php

claims of an AGM sulfate at 13v during extended float is completely new to me. So I called Deltran, mfg of Battery Tender Jr.

they also have never heard of an AGM battery sulfate during extended float mode at 13v. They said if a Battery Tender brand charger kills an AGM battery from extended float. Please do call them. it'd be news to them that an AGM battery will sulfate during float.

Originally Posted by vfxdog

I'm not on an anti-Deltran campaign, but they're not very likely to agree that float mode can cause problems, are they? The piece you quoted is from a Yuasa website, not my words.

I just want to reiterate that I'm recounting what I have experienced, and don't know the reasons or the theory. I now follow the same disconnection routine with Optimates and Cteks as well, and it's worked well for me. With 10 bikes, decent battery life is really important.

just got off the line with Yuasa technical ... they are now aware of the wrong information you pointed out and should removing it soon. thanks much for pointing it out...

purpose of the 28 day renewal cycle is not to prevent sulfation. but to test battery by making it go through a full charge cycle, to determine health of battery. a fully charged AGM battery will not sulfate during a 13v float.

if battery is getting ready to fail anyways .. a std battery maintainer will not detect said condition. vs Yuasa's 1.5amp charger by making it go through a full charge cycle will flush that out.

[veetwo _tls]

what is the best battery for cold weather -2C up , for starting a KTM 950 Superenduro ?

running
gps & 2 x hard wired hid's

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by veetwo _tls

what is the best battery to use for COLD weather starting -2C & up
make etc

at OC (14f) LiFePO4 battery will loose 50% of it's AH capacity. hence need to warm LiFePO4 battery up in extreme cold conditions by running some electric accessories before starter.

recommendations is to stay with AGM or stuff the largest LiFePO4 battery you can fit in space available.
main drawback is $$$$ .. both batteries show below are about 14AH actual .. 24 cell Antigravity = 13.8AH actual

Shorai LFX36 or Earth-X ETX36 (3lb 11oz) ...

[veetwo _tls]

i'm in a country town so ebay my best or local bikeshop which stock YUASA .


these motobatt's they any good ?


MBTX9U MOTOBATT AGM BATTERY KTM 950 SUPER ENDURO R 06-07, 990 ADVENTURER/S 05-09

http://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/sh.../motobatt.html

[_cy_]

Originally Posted by veetwo _tls

i'm in a country town so ebay my best or local bikeshop which stock YUASA .

these motobatt's they any good ?

MBTX9U MOTOBATT AGM BATTERY KTM 950 SUPER ENDURO R 06-07, 990 ADVENTURER/S 05-09

http://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/sh.../motobatt.html

Yuasa is an OEM supplier of AGM batteries. Motorcycle mfg to protect their reputation will only go with highest quality components.

with your extreme cold weather start requirements. go with the largest Amp Hour AGM battery you can stuff into available space. while you are not the only one riding to work in extreme cold conditions. most are starting out in the mornings from a heated garage. then returning home after the day has warmed up, bike stored outside.

all batteries regardless of chemistries deliver less performance during extreme cold conditions.

Peukert's law, presented by the German scientist W. Peukert in 1897, expresses the capacity of a lead–acid battery in terms of the rate at which it is discharged. As the rate increases, the battery's available capacity decreases.

[Marki_GSA]

Originally Posted by veetwo _tls

i'm in a country town so ebay my best or local bikeshop which stock YUASA .


these motobatt's they any good ?


MBTX9U MOTOBATT AGM BATTERY KTM 950 SUPER ENDURO R 06-07, 990 ADVENTURER/S 05-09

http://www.batteriesdirect.com.au/sh.../motobatt.html

Motobatt seem to be really good. There is a test somewhere that one was put against a few other top batteries repeatedly and they came out on top. There was an oddeesy in the test as well. I will see if I can find it and post a link.