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Old 03-29-2013, 06:05 PM   #421
Coachgeo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lion BR View Post
....I've uploaded this video for you (below), ....
Thanks for that. When you get a chance do this in a situation (in a local neighborhood?) where you don't have to straighten the bike back up so soon. Yes its the same thing but will be much more clear when having to countersteer then hold thru the turn longer before straightening out.

Would be interesting to see as some reported in a previous post that on video it seemed counter steer didnt show well. Not sure why they felt that way
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Old 03-29-2013, 06:19 PM   #422
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Originally Posted by Dream Rider View Post
This person nailed. Push left, go left, push right, go right and look through the turn!!!!!!!! Just go to an empty parking lot ride at a fast walk and push the bars right and left and you will see what happens. simple. Really.
again though; for a newbie.......... half to quarter? of the folk might read that statement as opposite of what your intending. AKA they interpret push left as "push with left arm" and not as "push the handle bars toward the left" That's now all Ive been trying to get across. When I first read it ........... I read it as push with left arm......... which would be a right counter steer.

A teaching/learning tool "saying" needs to have a higher rate of being interpreted correctly than what "push left", "push right" does

I'll try an experiment to see how many do which. Feel free to do the same. Experiment set up is easy. Put a pen on a table and stand/sit a person behind it and place first finger of each hand on the table with their fingertip at each side/end of pen. Just tell them follow my instructions. then say "push left" and see how many folk push the pen leftward (push right finger tip upward rotating pen to the left) and how many push with their left finger (rotating the pen to the right) Would be interesting to know also how many first ask for clarification which you mean (push leftward or push with left finger) so note that too. If they ask for clarity just tell them to "guess which you meant" and record what they do.

Coachgeo screwed with this post 03-29-2013 at 07:41 PM
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Old 03-31-2013, 12:54 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by Coachgeo View Post
again though; for a newbie.......... half to quarter? of the folk might read that statement as opposite of what your intending. AKA they interpret push left as "push with left arm" and not as "push the handle bars toward the left" That's now all Ive been trying to get across. ...

A teaching/learning tool "saying" needs to have a higher rate of being interpreted correctly than what "push left", "push right" does

I'll try an experiment to see how many do which. Feel free to do the same. Experiment set up is easy. Put a pen on a table and stand/sit a person behind it and place first finger of each hand on the table with their fingertip at each side/end of pen. Just tell them follow my instructions. then say "push left" and see how many folk push the pen leftward (push right finger tip upward rotating pen to the left) and how many push with their left finger (rotating the pen to the right) Would be interesting to know also how many first ask for clarification which you mean (push leftward or push with left finger) so note that too. If they ask for clarity just tell them to "guess which you meant" and record what they do.
ok so far to my surprise no one has rotated the pen leftward. so far one asked for clarity in which I meant and 100% have pushed with left rotating pen to the right. Still a very small (less than a dozen) tested though.

must admit though I did add more information that I originally suggested. Did say the topic of the test was about turning/steering a motorcycle.

Coachgeo screwed with this post 03-31-2013 at 12:59 PM
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Old 03-31-2013, 03:04 PM   #424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachgeo View Post
again though; for a newbie.......... half to quarter? of the folk might read that statement as opposite of what your intending. AKA they interpret push left as "push with left arm" and not as "push the handle bars toward the left" That's now all Ive been trying to get across. When I first read it ........... I read it as push with left arm......... which would be a right counter steer.

A teaching/learning tool "saying" needs to have a higher rate of being interpreted correctly than what "push left", "push right" does

I'll try an experiment to see how many do which. Feel free to do the same. Experiment set up is easy. Put a pen on a table and stand/sit a person behind it and place first finger of each hand on the table with their fingertip at each side/end of pen. Just tell them follow my instructions. then say "push left" and see how many folk push the pen leftward (push right finger tip upward rotating pen to the left) and how many push with their left finger (rotating the pen to the right) Would be interesting to know also how many first ask for clarification which you mean (push leftward or push with left finger) so note that too. If they ask for clarity just tell them to "guess which you meant" and record what they do.
It DOES mean push with left arm. To go left, you push the left handlebar, turning the wheel to the right -- that's why it's called "countersteering".

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Old 04-01-2013, 01:42 AM   #425
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I was told to push down on the left bar and the bike will go left and push down onn the right bar and the bike will go right.
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Old 04-01-2013, 06:13 AM   #426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
It DOES mean push with left arm. To go left, you push the left handlebar, turning the wheel to the right -- that's why it's called "countersteering".

PhilB
Works for me. I don't see the confusion, except when some people try to make it seem as if there is some "mystery" involved.

I think it comes down to some new riders don't have it as an instinct and when needed they "turn" the wrong way and hit the thing they intend to escape.

I've been riding motorcycles for a long time (Thanks DAD) it requires no thought- it's like an instinctual response to me.
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:34 AM   #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhilB View Post
It DOES mean push with left arm. To go left, you push the left handlebar, turning the wheel to the right -- that's why it's called "countersteering".

PhilB
yes when that is the first phase of the turn looking at it that way it is correct......... but many in here seem to be arguing differently saying push left means push the bike leftward by steering leftward (right arm push) out of one side of their mouth yet admitting counter steer must occur. So the line of "push left or right" creates just as much confusion as the concept of counter steer. Thus the notion it may be better to say as mentioned previously

For all turns

LOOK into it, counter out, steer in , look in, look in, look in...

or shorter
Look in, counter, steer in, look look look

maybe better

Look into, Counter out, steer thru

These identify the counter steer, and identifies the changes (or not) in handlebar pressure to maintain the turn.

Coachgeo screwed with this post 04-01-2013 at 10:54 AM
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Old 04-01-2013, 10:53 AM   #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachgeo View Post
again though; for a newbie.......... half to quarter? of the folk might read that statement as opposite of what your intending. AKA they interpret push left as "push with left arm" and not as "push the handle bars toward the left" That's now all Ive been trying to get across. When I first read it ........... I read it as push with left arm......... which would be a right counter steer.

A teaching/learning tool "saying" needs to have a higher rate of being interpreted correctly than what "push left", "push right" does

I'll try an experiment to see how many do which. Feel free to do the same. Experiment set up is easy. Put a pen on a table and stand/sit a person behind it and place first finger of each hand on the table with their fingertip at each side/end of pen. Just tell them follow my instructions. then say "push left" and see how many folk push the pen leftward (push right finger tip upward rotating pen to the left) and how many push with their left finger (rotating the pen to the right) Would be interesting to know also how many first ask for clarification which you mean (push leftward or push with left finger) so note that too. If they ask for clarity just tell them to "guess which you meant" and record what they do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachgeo View Post
ok so far to my surprise no one has rotated the pen leftward. so far one asked for clarity in which I meant and 100% have pushed with left rotating pen to the right. Still a very small (less than a dozen) tested though.

must admit though I did add more information that I originally suggested. Did say the topic of the test was about turning/steering a motorcycle.

Add "with".
Say "push with left, go left", when explaining countersteering.

And I apologize that -with this very minor addition- I just blew hours and hours of your carefully constructed confusion, nitpicking, misinterpretation and potential testing. My bad. I tend towards solutions, not the ancient oriental religious tradition of endlessly discussing for discussion's sake only.
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Old 04-01-2013, 11:34 AM   #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachgeo View Post
yes when that is the first phase of the turn looking at it that way it is correct......... but many in here seem to be arguing differently saying push left means push the bike leftward by steering leftward (right arm push)
YOU are the only one having trouble.

STOP CONFUSING THE n00bs with your idiotic way of making this complicated!

Look Left... PUSH LEFT. = go left
Look Right... PUSH RIGHT = Go right.

Look through the turn, LOOK THROUGH THE TURN, LOOK THROUGH THE TURN!!!
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:28 PM   #430
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i'm a puller more than a pusher. good exercise is to use left hand on right grip thru some sweepers. (yes i know it's going to slow reaction time on a emergency brake) i often do this when my wife is leading in a curvy section of road, she prefers to ride a little slower and it keeps me entertained. and i feel it sharpens skills. in general riding with one hand and forcing quick swerves builds good muscle memory.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:46 PM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
YOU are the only one having trouble.

STOP CONFUSING THE n00bs with your idiotic way of making this complicated!

Look Left... PUSH LEFT. = go left
Look Right... PUSH RIGHT = Go right.

Look through the turn, LOOK THROUGH THE TURN, LOOK THROUGH THE TURN!!!
Hey if it works for you and those you help out then... go for it. I'll stick with what 35+ years of teaching human movement seems to work for me and all will be well.
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Old 04-01-2013, 12:47 PM   #432
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i'm a puller more than a pusher. ...
good stuff. Again notes that the "push left or right" wording is too vague

oh well. Ride on
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:38 PM   #433
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[QUOTE=Coachgeo;21083006]
LOOK into it, counter out, steer in , look in, look in, look in...

QUOTE]

WHAT????????
I thought after 38 years on a bike I knew how to ride, I'm gonna have to stick to driving a cage from now on.
I don't know what you mean by "steer in"

It never seemed so complicated to me.

Quote Pretbrek "And I apologize that -with this very minor addition- I just blew hours and hours of your carefully constructed confusion, nitpicking, misinterpretation and potential testing. My bad. I tend towards solutions, not the ancient oriental religious tradition of endlessly discussing for discussion's sake only. "

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Old 04-01-2013, 02:58 PM   #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coachgeo View Post
Hey if it works for you and those you help out then... go for it. I'll stick with what 35+ years of teaching human movement seems to work for me and all will be well.
Run with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pretbek View Post
I just blew hours and hours of your carefully constructed confusion, nitpicking, misinterpretation and potential testing. My bad. I tend towards solutions, not the ancient oriental religious tradition of endlessly discussing for discussion's sake only.
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Old 04-01-2013, 08:41 PM   #435
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Holy shit!



will you guys just get on yer fookin' bikes and ride?

You do own a bike, right?

Bump. Oh hell yes! I does work!.... That's it, you figured it out that fast.

There's nothing wrong with asking about something you don't understand, but this is dead simple in practice. Try it one time and you'll understand it forever.
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