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Old 04-12-2013, 02:02 PM   #421
_cy_ OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frogy View Post
Thanks again Cy.
Oh yea, I read that you did a long bike test on the Shori 36 and now you are doing a long rtiding test on the EarthX 36...hows it doing?
Shorai LFX36 survived a one year test on R80G/S with excellent results. which included starting down to 15f. combined with short rides with heated gear, then successful starting R80G/S next morning at 20f ...

EarthX ETX36 is just getting started on R80G/S and has done several cold starts on shorts rides with heated gear. then successfully starting next morning. ETX36 has also passed 200amp crank tests with flying colors. jury is still out on long term performance... but I see no reason why EarthX ETX36 shouldn't be equal in performance to Shorai LFX36.

EarthX ETX36 has advantage of being slightly smaller and weight less @ 3lb 11oz and being watertight. both are excellent!

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Old 04-13-2013, 05:37 PM   #422
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I killed my Shorai after a couple of low voltage events (me bad) so I decided to do some surgery on it... The cells are held together with double stick tape wrapped in a firm blue plastic & the case was filled with a black substance. I found one bum cell when I took everything apart. If the battery had gone bad for no reason I would have called them. Sitting on my bench it would lose 3 volts overnight

This is a LFX14L2-BS12

I'm still happily using Shorai's in my Daughters quad and a generator.









I decided to replace it with an EarthX since it has the internal cell balancer circuit. I did not want to have to buy a battery specific charger that the other two battery makers want you to use.
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Old 04-13-2013, 06:10 PM   #423
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Originally Posted by rm_hm View Post
I killed my Shorai after a couple of low voltage events (me bad) so I decided to do some surgery on it... The cells are held together with double stick tape. I found one bum cell when I took everything apart.



I decided to replace it with an EarthX since it has the internal cell balancer circuit
bummer ... thanks for the pic's ... which Shoria?
did you call Shoria? .. they are amazingly generous at warrantying their batteries and in general really nice folks.

in the middle to doing testing for Optimate Lithium LiFePO4 charger. managed to recover a LiFePO4 battery from 1/2v .. it's now holding 13.67v after resting a week. capacity will be slightly less, but it beats having a completely dead battery.
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Old 04-13-2013, 07:31 PM   #424
Antigravity
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Originally Posted by veetwo _tls View Post
just done a sitting test (couple of days with no use) on the antigravity

it's reading 13.10V

in the paper work it says
> never drain the battery below 12.5V before recharging for optimal life & operation
> Charge battery as often as possible to keep in optimal voltage ... 13V


this mean the battery is still good then ?



.
Hey veet if you ever have a question for Antigravity you can also just shoot an email to us and get the answer straight from the horse's mouth, since we wrote it. All that it means about not letting the battery go below 12.5 for optimal battery life is a conservative figure that we state so customers understand to not let the battery hang out below that voltage. The less you let a battery go into lower voltage (or lower state of charge-"soc") the longer the life, that is true of ANY BATTERY regardless of lead or lithium. It just a factor in battery life. Keeping the battery in the highest SOC will improve life of the battery.... now how much is arguable and could turn into a thread about oil. But we prefer to attempt to educate the customers in our instructions to get the longest life. That is why we go into all the details... but don't worry about being at 12.5v... just note that you have a parasitic drain and put the battery on a maintenance chargers

You battery is perfectly fine and would be unless you let it hang out below 11 volts. But it appears your bike does have a parasitic drain because our battery will NOT go below 13.3v if you don't have a draw, and it will hold there for a year. As our instruction say if it is going below 13.3 while sitting in the garage just take a note of how long it took to do that... So if it took a month to get from 13.3 to 13.1 your doing pretty good... but if it did that in a week then you have a faster parasitic drain and should be more concerned.

We've also come out with a new series of short videos... Our first one is on Parasitic Drain and our Products and we have more in the works. We are making a couple more vids on the most frequently asked questions regarding Antigravity and Lithium batteries in general. We hope to educate the customers more about this newer technology. We get so many emails each day that we felt it might be good to have something easily watchable to get the consumer the info easily.

You can see them here. http://antigravitybatteries.com/videos/

I hope to have two more up within a couple days. One on comparing lead/acid and lithium and how they react and have different charactaristics.

Regards-
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Old 04-13-2013, 07:59 PM   #425
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Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
Hey veet if you ever have a question for Antigravity you can also just shoot an email to us and get the answer straight from the horse's mouth, since we wrote it. All that it means about not letting the battery go below 12.5 for optimal battery life is a conservative figure that we state so customers understand to not let the battery hang out below that voltage. The less you let a battery go into lower voltage (or lower state of charge-"soc") the longer the life, that is true of ANY BATTERY regardless of lead or lithium. It just a factor in battery life. Keeping the battery in the highest SOC will improve life of the battery.... now how much is arguable and could turn into a thread about oil. But we prefer to attempt to educate the customers in our instructions to get the longest life. That is why we go into all the details... but don't worry about being at 12.5v... just note that you have a parasitic drain and put the battery on a maintenance chargers

You battery is perfectly fine and would be unless you let it hang out below 11 volts. But it appears your bike does have a parasitic drain because our battery will NOT go below 13.3v if you don't have a draw, and it will hold there for a year. As our instruction say if it is going below 13.3 while sitting in the garage just take a note of how long it took to do that... So if it took a month to get from 13.3 to 13.1 your doing pretty good... but if it did that in a week then you have a faster parasitic drain and should be more concerned.

We've also come out with a new series of short videos... Our first one is on Parasitic Drain and our Products and we have more in the works. We are making a couple more vids on the most frequently asked questions regarding Antigravity and Lithium batteries in general. We hope to educate the customers more about this newer technology. We get so many emails each day that we felt it might be good to have something easily watchable to get the consumer the info easily.

You can see them here. http://antigravitybatteries.com/videos/

I hope to have two more up within a couple days. One on comparing lead/acid and lithium and how they react and have different charactaristics.

Regards-
Antigravity .. thanks for dropping in ... a bit of background on veetwo _tls Antigravity battery.. he's riding bike to work at 11:30pm, then starting bike at 4:30am @ 5C degrees for trip home ... his voltage regulator just went out ... he heard a pop... system is charging at 17v ... new VR is enroute ...

didn't think 17v would be enough to pop safety valve in cylindrical A123 cells. normally it'd take 32v+ to overcharge A123 cells enough to blow safety valve. huge margin of safety for LiFePO4 cells...
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Old 04-13-2013, 08:26 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post

didn't think 17v would be enough to pop safety valve in cylindrical A123 cells. normally it'd take 32v+ to overcharge A123 cells enough to blow safety valve. huge margin of safety for LiFePO4 cells...
The 32 volts you speak of might cause an immediate rupture of an A123 cell, but 17v is typical of a bad voltage regulator. And so you understand it is the time of exposure of over voltage to any lithium cells, not the 32 volts expressly... For this reason we say don't use the battery tender jr. or lead acid chargers. Too many of these lead chargers have features that go over 15v, or sulfinate cycles which will eventually puff cells be it prismatic or cylindric...

A123 don't often blow a safety top, it's a physical puffing of the cell similar to a Prismatic that get puffed out. We occasionally get the puffing on cells on the older CB Honda's using the Voltage Regulator because those old Voltage Regs go bad. They are only going over to about 17v but cause the bloating damage to the cells because 17v does its damage over a couple hours or less usually. We know most every time its been on a lead charger or in a older bike with a Voltage regulator because the battery is puffed out.
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Old 04-13-2013, 08:40 PM   #427
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Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
The 32 volts you speak of might cause an immediate rupture of an A123 cell, but 17v is typical of a bad voltage regulator. And so you understand it is the time of exposure of over voltage to any lithium cells, not the 32 volts expressly... For this reason we say don't use the battery tender jr. or lead acid chargers. Too many of these lead chargers have features that go over 15v, or sulfinate cycles which will eventually puff cells be it prismatic or cylindric...

A123 don't often blow a safety top, it's a physical puffing of the cell similar to a Prismatic that get puffed out. We occasionally get the puffing on cells on the older CB Honda's using the Voltage Regulator because those old Voltage Regs go bad. They are only going over to about 17v but cause the bloating damage to the cells because 17v does its damage over a couple hours or less usually. We know most every time its been on a lead charger or in a older bike with a Voltage regulator because the battery is puffed out.
sorry should have been more clear ... LiFePO4 cells are extremely tolerant to overcharge abuse. it'd normally take wild abuse of overcharging at 32v to cause an A123 cell to overheat and pop it's safety valve.

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Old 04-14-2013, 08:07 PM   #428
veetwo _tls
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Thanks VR for you help


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Old 04-14-2013, 09:41 PM   #429
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veetwo _tls congrats on the fix!!!

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Old 04-17-2013, 08:41 PM   #430
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I don't ride but this was the most comprehensive lithium battery thread I've seen.

I'm thinking about putting a 16 cell antigrav battery in a daily driven garaged car, anyone see problems with this? It's a Honda K24, no electric heated accessories, power seats, etc., and I don't run accessories/radio when the car is off. Stock is 440 CCA.
I'm in the seattle area, so it does get a little cold, but nothing too crazy.

For weight reduction and balance of the car, I once swapped a stock battery for a deka and you can feel it change the handling. Deleting ~30 lbs off the far front actually makes the bias less front heavy and steers quicker.

Thanks guys.
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Old 04-18-2013, 08:05 AM   #431
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Originally Posted by outersquare View Post
I don't ride but this was the most comprehensive lithium battery thread I've seen.

I'm thinking about putting a 16 cell antigrav battery in a daily driven garaged car, anyone see problems with this? It's a Honda K24, no electric heated accessories, power seats, etc., and I don't run accessories/radio when the car is off. Stock is 440 CCA.
I'm in the seattle area, so it does get a little cold, but nothing too crazy.

For weight reduction and balance of the car, I once swapped a stock battery for a deka and you can feel it change the handling. Deleting ~30 lbs off the far front actually makes the bias less front heavy and steers quicker.

Thanks guys.
thanks for joining in ... yup this motorcycle battery testing thread contains the largest amount of technical information for LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries on the WWW.

K24 is a Honda 2,354 cc (143.6 cu in) which would be almost double in size to R1200GS for size reference.

some of the information in this thread like what happens to LiFePO4 during cold temps and 200amp load tests certainly would apply.

automotive starters are not under the same weight limitations as motorcycles. same for engines, which has extensive engineering to reduce internal drag. much higher output alternators for cars vs motorcycles also makes a huge difference.

what's the current draw for your K24 starter warm vs at lower temp? 200amp peak then reduces to 150amp? typical crank times?

normally saving 30lb or so would not make enough of a difference to justify much higher cost of a LiFePO4 battery with enough amp hour capacity to operate most autos.

vs saving 21lb (compared to Odyssey 925) on test mule BMW R80G/S. for some folks being able to save 21lb on their adventure bike justifies higher costs for LiFePO4.

above is why world's first wide spread adoption for LiFePO4 batteries is occurring in motorcycle and not in automobiles.

LiFePO4 li-ion batteries' voltage matches to almost all 12v charging systems. LiFePO4 batteries are inherently safe and very difficult to catch on fire.
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Old 04-18-2013, 08:45 AM   #432
Antigravity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outersquare View Post
I don't ride but this was the most comprehensive lithium battery thread I've seen.

I'm thinking about putting a 16 cell antigrav battery in a daily driven garaged car, anyone see problems with this? It's a Honda K24, no electric heated accessories, power seats, etc., and I don't run accessories/radio when the car is off. Stock is 440 CCA.
I'm in the seattle area, so it does get a little cold, but nothing too crazy.

For weight reduction and balance of the car, I once swapped a stock battery for a deka and you can feel it change the handling. Deleting ~30 lbs off the far front actually makes the bias less front heavy and steers quicker.

Thanks guys.
Hi Guy, the 16-Cell would flip that motor on the car with absolutely no-problem... But I don't recommned using it unless you are racing. We do have a ton of people running our 16-24 cells in their car and every time we tell them not to do it. It's not about starting the vehicles... that is easy with our batteries an 8 cell would probably turn over your car honestly. The issue is capacity, a cars battery has a very large Amp Hour capacity due to the major level of parasitic drain/draws on the battery. Something as simple as opening a door makes the dome light and interior lighting go on, the ECUs on cars now draw a substantial amount of energy along with the instrumentation panels the keep all the settings while using a batteries energy. But more important is the possible road-side emergency. You want something that can power your lighting and radio for awhile should you be stuck on a freeway or mountain side road. You want that major overhead in capacity. while the Car is running the battery isn't being drained. Its being charged so all will seem good... but its the mistakes or overlooking something that will leave you stranded or damage the battery. And all us humans make mistakes.

I actually drained my Toyota Tacoma's big lead acid battery while leaving the key on but motor off while charging my iphone for a couple hours. Luckly I keep a 12 cell in the car and fired it right up (3.0 liter V6), but its those little mistakes that can ruin your day OR your battery if your in the boonies.

Regards
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Old 04-18-2013, 01:18 PM   #433
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thank you both the originator and manufacturer for the great information.

I have not looked into the current draw of the car, it cranks up pretty fast 2 or 3 seconds tops, even in 30-39 degree weather.

Some of you may be aware porsche has been selling lithium batteries as an option for their vehicles, but it costs something in the ~2K range.

http://www.pro-touring.com/showthrea...er-lightweight!!

Note the spec is 12.8V, 18Ah, 480A for a flat 6, but they make the same stipulation as this thread, do not use in freezing temps.

This technology may be in it's infancy, but I think it'll eventually make it's way into even factory performance cars, so it's good to know for the future also.
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Old 04-18-2013, 01:34 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by outersquare View Post
thank you both the originator and manufacturer for the great information.

I have not looked into the current draw of the car, it cranks up pretty fast 2 or 3 seconds tops, even in 30-39 degree weather.

Some of you may be aware porsche has been selling lithium batteries as an option for their vehicles, but it costs something in the ~2K range.

http://www.pro-touring.com/showthrea...er-lightweight!!

Note the spec is 12.8V, 18Ah, 480A for a flat 6, but they make the same stipulation as this thread, do not use in freezing temps.

This technology may be in it's infancy, but I think it'll eventually make it's way into even factory performance cars, so it's good to know for the future also.
thanks very much for sharing that info... this dovetails in with my conversation with Yuasa technical last week. naturally one of my questions to Yuasa was ...

does Yuasa have any plans to offer a LiFePO4 battery in the near future? their answer was .. Yuasa is an OEM supplier to major motorcycle mfgs for original equipment batteries.

if/when a major motorcycle mfg decides to offer LiFePO4 batteries as original equipment. Yuasa will then offer LiFePO4 batteries.

interesting ... Porsche's LiFePO4 spec's ... 12.8v 18AH 480CCA ... 12" Long, 6 3/4" Wide, 4 1/2" Tall .. Weighs just under 12 pounds according to retailer optional battery for 911 GT3 and the Boxster Spyder.

this is the first OEM that I'm aware of that has offered a LiFePO4 battery as a factory supplied option. even if it's for exotic Porsche models.

Does anyone know of any other mfg that's offered an LiFePo4 battery as origin equipment?

it's important to point out, despite the $2,000+ selling price. Porsche has decided to use actual amp hour ratings. not the PB/EQ rating that can lead to installing wrong size LiFePO4 batteries. which then results in failed LiFePO4 at the first sign of cold weather and unhappy customers.

------------

"The lightweight battery offers a very high standard of everyday driving qualities but its starting capacity is limited at temperatures below 32 degrees F or 0 degrees C, due to its specific features.

With its nominal capacity of 18 Ah, the lithium-ion battery offers a level of practical output and performance not only comparable to that of a 60 Ah lead battery, but better in many cases. As with all Porsche batteries, a genuine Porsche Battery Maintainer is recommended for vehicles which are stored for over two weeks. ~

The lithium-ion battery being introduced by Porsche as the pioneer in this area is made up of wound film of carbon and iron phosphate with a ceramic film moisturized by the electrolyte that serves as a separating layer in between. Compared with other types of lithium-ion batteries that use a combination of manganese oxide, cobalt oxide or nickel, this lithium-iron-phosphate battery, as it is called, offers advantages when used as a starter battery. It is robust and consistently guarantees the usual voltage of 12 V for the car's on-board network.

The lightweight battery is made up of four cells and integrated electronic controls. This battery management system protects the battery from major discharges and guarantees a consistent charge level within the individual cells. Once battery voltage drops below a certain threshold, a warning signal reminds the driver to re-charge the battery either simply by driving the car or by means of a conventional battery charger."

------------




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Old 04-19-2013, 01:59 PM   #435
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From what I've been able to dig up ... first production car to use lithium-ion batteries was the Toyota Vitz CVT 4, a small car sold only in Japan first in 1998. It used a four-cell, 12 ampere-hour lithium-ion battery pack to power its electric accessories and restart the engine after idle stop.

does anyone know of an earlier use of Li-ion battery as OEM or original equipment mfg?
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