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Old 05-01-2013, 09:11 AM   #421
UtahGuido
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Originally Posted by brewtus View Post
While Twinshocker and I rarely (if ever) agree on anything, I gotta go with him on the bars. ATV bars are too narrow and have too much pullback to work well in Trials. Renthal makes Trials bend Fatbars, I have a set on my 4RT. Otherwise, it looks like you are off to a good start.

I've ridden the Reflex in the link. JC bought himself a nifty scoot, it works well. FYI, that's Lineaway he's having the ride-off against in the pictures. Lineaway did not have to ride the last time, he had it wrapped up, but hoots from the audience got him to do it. I had just opened up a fresh beer, and I wanted a show to go along with it!


Drag your 'Flex down here sometime and I'll show you how to properly crash it!
Thanks for the invite. Maybe someday.

Yeah, I've seen the Renthal bars out there. A little wider and less sweep. But at nearly $100 shipped I may be futzing with the current setup for a while. I think I do need to pull the bars back though. Would having them too far forward encourage the front end to "plough"?, that is understeer? Or is that a function of the slack head angle? I've got a feeling it's the former because I didn't notice it as much with the original bars in place.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:02 AM   #422
Sting32
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Originally Posted by UtahGuido View Post
Thanks for the invite. Maybe someday.

Yeah, I've seen the Renthal bars out there. A little wider and less sweep. But at nearly $100 shipped I may be futzing with the current setup for a while. I think I do need to pull the bars back though. Would having them too far forward encourage the front end to "plough"?, that is understeer? Or is that a function of the slack head angle? I've got a feeling it's the former because I didn't notice it as much with the original bars in place.
The bars you have, IMHO and probably anyone else that rides or ridden trials, are probably causing that and several other problems with "riding it like a trials bike in general." Our bars are kind of special, they've been developed/improved as fast as our technique has evolved, and the bikes themselves have, over years of "trials competition" and testing and stuff.

I firmly believe, if ATV bars were any at all, type of advantage at all! we'd all have them by now, if you see what I am saying.

But like you I am a tight ass on $, so maybe just like Chopper father and son on TV you can mod what you have for now, to be like what seems to work, or since I dont trust welding and bending and strenght of my finished project on some things, I bite the bullet and get the right part. Find used on Ebay or something, beg for old bars on here, or something.

I mean you can use 2 paper clips and Nomex copper wire to make a spark plug wire for your car and bikes, if you like to be cheap and stand the consequences that brings..
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:13 AM   #423
lineaway
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Sooner or later

Sting, did you let `ole 4 eyes beat you on a Beta?
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:33 AM   #424
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Originally Posted by lineaway View Post
It`s not they are better. It`s all in the bend. It would be like putting ape hangers on a mx bike, for me to ride with an mx bar.
I guess since I use high bars on my MX bikes too and I am such a trials noob is why they don't really seem much different to me. Other than the Domino cross bar is only 6.5" and I can't find a pad that fits it, they feel very similar to the bars on my other bikes to me.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:51 AM   #425
UtahGuido
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Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
The bars you have, IMHO and probably anyone else that rides or ridden trials, are probably causing that and several other problems with "riding it like a trials bike in general." Our bars are kind of special, they've been developed/improved as fast as our technique has evolved, and the bikes themselves have, over years of "trials competition" and testing and stuff.

I firmly believe, if ATV bars were any at all, type of advantage at all! we'd all have them by now, if you see what I am saying.

But like you I am a tight ass on $, so maybe just like Chopper father and son on TV you can mod what you have for now, to be like what seems to work, or since I dont trust welding and bending and strenght of my finished project on some things, I bite the bullet and get the right part. Find used on Ebay or something, beg for old bars on here, or something.

I mean you can use 2 paper clips and Nomex copper wire to make a spark plug wire for your car and bikes, if you like to be cheap and stand the consequences that brings..
I'm cheap but I also have no problem spending money, if that makes any sense. Yeah, I'm a walking contradiction. I'll probably spring for the Renthals.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:09 AM   #426
brewtus OP
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Never hurts to hootch these old things up a bit here and there. As I've said before, almost every component of OJ is literally a dumpster refugee, with the exception of the awesome skidplate from B&J Racing. At the time I purchased it, I thought it was way too much money for a part-time Trials playbike, but I certainly don't regret it now.

Bars on OJ are an old pair of Hebos that I took off of my '99 GasGas several years ago when I put Fatbars on it. And yes, they're bent.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:44 AM   #427
Sting32
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Sting, did you let `ole 4 eyes beat you on a Beta?
Yeah, and you know when Pat Smage moves back to Sr Expert, he'll be able to beat me as well...

I mean fer crying out loud, I was a "good" expert, but that was when I was a 17 year old kid, back in 1983. I think I ride good, some days better than others. I beat him on Saturday, he smoked me on sunday

Im 47, Sr Expert is as good as I'll ever be, ol 4 eyes was a master at one time, just a couple years back was he not?

Ill be sure to give everyone hell that I can though, in competition...

and thanks Lineaway, for rubbing it in!
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:49 AM   #428
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Sting, You still have a few rounds left!! I figured it was the malted barley!!
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:44 PM   #429
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Quoth Twin-Shocker



Thanks for the observation. I understand the importance between bars and pegs, steering and CG, or at least I'm learning. I looked around the i-net trying to find pictures of proper trials setups and it seem that when standing on the pegs, knees slightly flexed, the hadgrips were about 5-6 inches above the knees. The original bars on this thing were at my knees and the current setup is somewhere in that 5-6 inch zone. But hey, I'm new at this and open to suggestion. And the bars can be rotated back no sweat. Maybe I should take a picture with me on the bike and offer it for critique.

And where does one find trials fat bars? Not that I want to spend more dough, the Tusk bars being relatively affordable at less than $40. Could be I'll end up with a spare set.

The peg lowering is in the cards - neighbor up the street who welds is interested in the project.

Fun project!
In stock form the TLR chassis is poor for use in competition, as the head angle means very imprecise steering, add to this footrests which are far too high, and you have a play bike rather than anything close to a trials bike.

Bars intended for trials use (rider mainly standing), are a lot straighter than bars intended for play/MX use (rider mainly sitting), and using these on a trials bike will do very strange things to your wrists.

The bar risers you have fitted will tend to make your steering even worse than the already poor stock set up, as increasing the distance between the front wheel spindle and the bars always makes the steering less direct, and introduces more twist into the already flimsy front forks.

Properly fitting fat bars to any TS bike tends to increase rigidity of the front end, which means improved steering, and also seems to make riding very rocky events much easier as fat bars tend to absorb shock better than 7/8 ones.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:11 AM   #430
UtahGuido
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Originally Posted by Twin-shocker View Post
In stock form the TLR chassis is poor for use in competition, as the head angle means very imprecise steering, add to this footrests which are far too high, and you have a play bike rather than anything close to a trials bike.

Bars intended for trials use (rider mainly standing), are a lot straighter than bars intended for play/MX use (rider mainly sitting), and using these on a trials bike will do very strange things to your wrists.

The bar risers you have fitted will tend to make your steering even worse than the already poor stock set up, as increasing the distance between the front wheel spindle and the bars always makes the steering less direct, and introduces more twist into the already flimsy front forks.

Properly fitting fat bars to any TS bike tends to increase rigidity of the front end, which means improved steering, and also seems to make riding very rocky events much easier as fat bars tend to absorb shock better than 7/8 ones.
Got it. I'm in the experimentation stage so as I said I'm open to suggestion. I can see the point with the bars being cranked up so high - comfy for me but with a loss of precision in steering. And lets face it, it's a Reflex. So it may be back to the drawing board and a re-thinking of this bar set-up. Thanks for the feedback!
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:25 PM   #431
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Originally Posted by UtahGuido View Post
Thanks for the invite. Maybe someday.

Yeah, I've seen the Renthal bars out there. A little wider and less sweep. But at nearly $100 shipped I may be futzing with the current setup for a while. I think I do need to pull the bars back though. Would having them too far forward encourage the front end to "plough"?, that is understeer? Or is that a function of the slack head angle? I've got a feeling it's the former because I didn't notice it as much with the original bars in place.
Not leaning the bike enough will make it plow. I don't know what skill level you are so this is just a shot in the dark. I see a lot of newer riders not leaning the bike enough and pushing the front tire out in turns.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:27 PM   #432
Sting32
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Im just gonna say, from teaching several people to ride over the years, that PLOWING is the symptom of, improper weight distribution, 95% of the time, lean can have some to do with it, but most of the time too much lean plows a bike in a TIGHT turn.

SO, the right "bars" can help you or wrong "bars" will cause you to not to be able to do this as easily let alone be able to have real input from people that have real bike and real trials bars.

When you have the same "tools" (aka bike and how it is setup and accessorised) It will be 10000x easier to give tips and or criticism of technique or ANYTHING. Especially without a video or something to go by...

Analogy:
It is trying to save from paying a guy $50 an hour, to dig 5 post holes, one guy with the (manual but specific) post hole digging tools, can dig 5 holes in probably 30 minutes, when he's done it a lot, in physical shape, and all that. A "never done it before" (aka DIY) person can learn from a guy that does it all the time with those SAME tools.

Now if you are going to dig 5 post holes, but plan on using a butter knife instead (an analogy to the funky bars) then there is NOTHING I can tell you to get you to be as good or quick, nor as precise, at digging post holes like maybe I am, me giving you advice or tips that is.

SO Im not being Snarky... I hope that helps you understand that if you are going to work on a technique on a tool that is outside the box, then you will have to work on "outside the box" techniques, although theory an results we're trying to achieve might be the same, the actual labor/technique is obviously different.
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Old 05-02-2013, 05:51 PM   #433
Sting32
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FWIW...

You bring your NEW novice that we're training, to a "big" event in Tishomingo OK, he's following you, then suddenly he isn't. You go back, and find him "practicing." Yep it is Camera/Video time!

He's been riding trials since October 2012. I know folks that been riding for 10 years cannot do this.

Get the right tools, get the job done...

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Old 05-03-2013, 01:51 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by UtahGuido View Post
Got it. I'm in the experimentation stage so as I said I'm open to suggestion. I can see the point with the bars being cranked up so high - comfy for me but with a loss of precision in steering. And lets face it, it's a Reflex. So it may be back to the drawing board and a re-thinking of this bar set-up. Thanks for the feedback!

The Reflex frame is exactly the same as the TLR, and can be improved enormously by a few simple modifications. The set up you have on your bike currently, will make it more comfortable to ride, but will mean that the already poor steering/handling is a good deal worse. If you are not wanting to compete, it doesnt matter, but if you do I would suggest removing those risers and modifying top yoke to take fat bars.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:30 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by Sting32 View Post
FWIW...

You bring your NEW novice that we're training, to a "big" event in Tishomingo OK, he's following you, then suddenly he isn't. You go back, and find him "practicing." Yep it is Camera/Video time!

He's been riding trials since October 2012. I know folks that been riding for 10 years cannot do this.

Get the right tools, get the job done...

Nicely done.

We have a junior at our club thats only been riding for 10 or so months. He's knee high to a Grasshopper and makes a Sherco 125 look huge. None of us old farts can walk the lines he rides.
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