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Old 05-03-2013, 12:03 PM   #496
Global Rider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
my standard reply is to go with a quality AGM.
Cy, I have heard all about the so-called fantastic qualities of an AGM for years.

What are they known for: low self discharge (who cares) and very high CCA due to low R int (who cares). I wonder if the guy spewing the term CCA even knows what CCA is and under what conditions?

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spilled battery acid all over is not my idea of a good time.
Not a good idea in aerobatic aircraft either. But I have yet to have an acid spill in 38 or so years.


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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
Wet PB also has the highest self discharge rate of all PB cells.
I know; remember I work in a lab...previously an electrical standards lab for 15 years and the last 5 years with batteries, chargers and power systems.

And once again, who cares what the self discharge rate is when standyby/parasitic drain is tens to hundreds of times greater. Totally unimportant, but if you want to impress the poor uninformed consumer, fill your boots!

Sorry I don't have your passion about batteries. Actually I do...just that one only needs to know a paragraph length of info to make them last...not a novel.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:08 PM   #497
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For the consumer who is looking for some info about AGM and GEL batteries.

Page 9 discusses the advantages and disadvantages of FLA, AGM and GEL.

East Penn Technical Manual...one of many on the WWW.
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:25 PM   #498
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Originally Posted by Global Rider View Post
Cy, I have heard all about the so-called fantastic qualities of an AGM for years.

What are they known for: low self discharge (who cares) and very high CCA due to low R int (who cares). I wonder if the guy spewing the term CCA even knows what CCA is and under what conditions?



Not a good idea in aerobatic aircraft either. But I have yet to have an acid spill in 38 or so years.




I know; remember I work in a lab...previously an electrical standards lab for 15 years and the last 5 years with batteries, chargers and power systems.

And once again, who cares what the self discharge rate is when standyby/parasitic drain is tens to hundreds of times greater. Totally unimportant, but if you want to impress the poor uninformed consumer, fill your boots!

Sorry I don't have your passion about batteries. Actually I do...just that one only needs to know a paragraph length of info to make them last...not a novel.
all the different types of PB are well documented and understood. good grief, AGM has been out for 25+ years, just that AGM has only recently reached a price point to justify buying.

when price point for LiFePO4 goes down to OEM levels... there could be a mass adoption for LiFePO4 batteries in motorcycles. why do you think why several major manufacturers of LiFePO4, AGM, chargers, etc. etc. has chosen to sponsor this effort?

PB info, it's all over the WWW... loads and loads of information out there on lead acid batteries.

what's unusual about this thread is the mass amount of technical information on LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries. which leads me back to why I'm requesting your help on accessing if this material is laid out in a manner too hard to understand?

my objective is to present technical information on LiFePO4 in the simplest/easiest to understand format. if I'm writing in manner that's losing someone that works in a lab. then I've got to make it simpler to understand.

please answer the question in post #493 .. do you or do you not understand why LiFePO4 in 4s configuration is an almost perfect match for 12v charging system used in motorcycles?

_cy_ screwed with this post 05-03-2013 at 12:34 PM
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Old 05-03-2013, 12:44 PM   #499
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if I'm writing in manner that's losing someone that works in a lab. then I've got to make it simpler to understand.
Hardly the case.

Other than weight on a world class track bike where it matters, I see no purpose to Li-Ion batteries for 99.9 % of users. Yes, there will always be those who want bragging rights; their choice.

I love them in my cell phone, digital camera and laptop. That is where they shine.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:01 PM   #500
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Originally Posted by Global Rider View Post
Hardly the case.

Other than weight on a world class track bike where it matters, I see no purpose to Li-Ion batteries for 99.9 % of users. Yes, there will always be those who want bragging rights; their choice.

I love them in my cell phone, digital camera and laptop. That is where they shine.
let's say you are 100% correct above ... that doesn't stop the HUGE number of folks that think their motorcycle is their baby and deserve the very best!

this translates into $$$$ spent on LiFePO4 batteries and chargers. naturally mfg and consumers both have a stake in separating out fact from fiction. this is why I'm interested in anyone that has real world experience with LiFePO4 batteries in their motorcycles.

really appreciate when someone takes the time to post in this thread about their experiences with LiFePO4 in their motorcycles!!!!

again ... please answer the question in post #493 .. do you or do you not understand why LiFePO4 in 4s configuration is an almost perfect match for 12v charging system used in motorcycles?

Shorai LFX36 and EarthX ETX36

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Old 05-03-2013, 01:12 PM   #501
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let's say you are 100% correct above ... that doesn't stop the HUGE number of folks that think their motorcycle is their baby and deserve the very best!
What makes it the "very best"? How is it better if my motorcycle starts every time...and since it has proven itself over the long term.

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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
do you or do you not understand why LiFePO4 in 4s configuration is an almost perfect match for 12v charging system used in motorcycles?
I understand. Do you or do you not agree that it would be far better to charge each single cell than a string of cells, especially in a Li-Ion battery.
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Old 05-03-2013, 01:44 PM   #502
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Originally Posted by Global Rider View Post
What makes it the "very best"? How is it better if my motorcycle starts every time...and since it has proven itself over the long term.



I understand. Do you or do you not agree that it would be far better to charge each single cell than a string of cells, especially in a Li-Ion battery.
thank you for acknowledging that you understand.... was really getting worried that my style of writing was not getting the message across.

when you use li-ion label, as you know that includes a lot of different chemistries. so what's accurate for lithium cobalt may not apply to LiFePO4.

assuming you are referring to LiFePO4, charging in a series with or without internal BMS is way less critical for LiFePO4 vs lithium cobalt, which is safest charging one cell at a time. hence need for balance leads and/or BMS during charging. lithium cobalt cells are inherently unstable and need all sorts of protection to keep from going into thermal runaway (explosion).. vs LiFePO4 are inherently stable and takes extreme abuse to catch on fire.

charge/discharge curves for lithium cobalt are no where close to LiFePO4. but they both share traits of li-ion with extremely low internal resistance, resulting in HUGE discharge rates.

have been using individual unprotected lithium cobalt cells in my flashlights for 9+ years. those are always safest charged one cell at a time with a lithium cobalt specific charger with a true 4.2v termination.

check out these pic's taken in 2004 and 2005 showing very early Lithium cobalt cells being used in flashlights. second picture shows a Larry light, custom all hand made, including hand soldered circuit board. notice date code on li-ion battery of 02-2004.

this was bleeding edge technologies in 2004 ...






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Old 05-03-2013, 06:40 PM   #503
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
which is safest charging one cell at a time. hence need for balance leads and/or BMS during charging.
Although safety is the #1 concern, what concerns me is battery life if it is overcharged. And Li-Ion does not do well being overcharged. So if they are in a string, that may happen. Once they are overcharged, they are done...big money wasted.

Same for AGM and GEL. None of these as well as your favorite battery are very forgiving in the charging process. FLA...no sweat. I can and do equalize the battery from time to time...it gasses, no sweat, I top it off a tad.
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Old 05-03-2013, 07:22 PM   #504
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OK got most of info needed, MV is a 1,000cc class modern bike being operated in mostly warm temps ... what size Speedcell?

not familiar with Speedcell. with the rapidly adoption of LiFePO4 batteries by the motorcycle industry. unlike conventional lead acid mfg who's got LOADS of osha, epa, etc. etc. etc. to deal with.

literally anyone can start a LiFePO4 battery business in their garage with little to no regulation.

Speedcell appears to use A123 cells (26650) in 4s, then stacked in parallel to add more AH. 4cell = 2.3AH 8cell = 4.6AH and so on...

recommendation is to add a hard protective layer around battery. LiFePO4 batteries with only a shrink wrap protecting metal straps that connect cells are especially vulnerable to dead shorts.

if said LiFePO4 battery gets discharged HARD ... straps will get hot .. possibly melting shrink wrap. once shrink wrap is melted, metal straps are exposed. which could result in a fire from a dead short.

shrink wrap is designed to be heated with an airgun. which then shrinks wrap around cells. heat from straps connecting cells will shrink wrap further. with a good chance of exposing strap, which could result in a dead short. IHMO shrink wrap alone is not a good choice for an outside layer on LiFePO4 motorcycle batteries. your mileage of course may veri...

it's not unusual for a motorcycle to draw 200+ amps... 4.6AH battery discharge at 43C or 200amps. those tiny straps carry a LOT of current and can heat up.

A123 (26650) cells are rated:
  • Maximum Continuous Discharging :70A, 28.0C rate
  • Maximum Impulse Discharging (< 10 sec): 120A, 48.0C rate

Ok, how am I to make a "box" for this thing?



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Old 05-03-2013, 07:53 PM   #505
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Originally Posted by Global Rider View Post
Although safety is the #1 concern, what concerns me is battery life if it is overcharged. And Li-Ion does not do well being overcharged. So if they are in a string, that may happen. Once they are overcharged, they are done...big money wasted.

Same for AGM and GEL. None of these as well as your favorite battery are very forgiving in the charging process. FLA...no sweat. I can and do equalize the battery from time to time...it gasses, no sweat, I top it off a tad.
again .. you keep referring to li-ion and not stating which type. overcharge lithium cobalt (LiCoO2) by little as 1/2v .. bad things could happen (explosion)

vs LiFePO4 are more tolerant to overcharge and takes wild abuse to catch it on fire.

it's not possible to use (LiCoO2) in 12v charging systems without step up/down electronics. operating voltages for (LiCoO2) simply don't match 12v charging systems.

completely different charge parameters for PB vs LiFePO4 which is fully charged at 14.6v .. most normal 12v charging systems operate 13.8v to 14.2v ... if you feed 14.2v from a 12v charging system to a LiFePO4 battery it's not possible to overcharge. unless you plan on doing an iron butt ride for a week straight without stopping. then afterwards, that LiFePO4 will still probably be OK.

if anything Gel is the most at risk from overcharging as it doesn't like to be charged much over 14.2v... AGM don't go much over 14.8v. wet PB is the most tolerant to overcharge.

again time must be factored ... going over voltage for short periods will generally not hurt any of the chemistries mentioned except (LiCoO2 + 1/2v over 4.2v = thermal runaway). but over voltage if given enough time will kill all of the above. the most likely scenario killing your battery is when using a battery tender/charger without a true float mode for months.... NOT from your 12v charging system on your motorcycle.

one other failure mode needs to be mentioned... on permanent magnet charging systems... if voltage reg/Rectifier fails, depending on make ... one could get 17v to 20v+ coming at your battery. this potentially kills all of the above chemistries .. including wet PB ...

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Old 05-03-2013, 08:13 PM   #506
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Ok, how am I to make a "box" for this thing?



examine plastic case carefully to determine what's under the outer layer of shrink wrap. if mfg placed a protective layer under shrink wrap in case of failure. then a layer of safety has been factored in by the mfg. still it's the most fragile of all the battery pack styles.

it's probably enough that you understand importance of protecting that battery pack. when you strap that battery down, place a layer of protective material between battery tray and LiFePO4 8 cell pack.

don't make any mods to battery, leave that to battery mfg.

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Old 05-04-2013, 10:22 PM   #507
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Ok, will do that.

Thanks
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Old 05-05-2013, 12:30 AM   #508
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I think what _cy_ was getting on about some chargers not being compatible with LiFePO's was in relation to their charging voltage. Basically how some put out too many volts for too long or fail to go into a proper maintenance float charge. LiFePO's work in a vehicles charging system since said charging systems usually top out at around 14.2-14.4 on average. So even if the charging system is fairly rudementary, it still won't overcharge LiFePO's or lead batteries. In general, though, your average lead acid smart charger would be fine so long as you didn't use the desulfation mode. At least, that's what I think he was saying.

Frankly, plain ol' FLA's are solid for those that are willing to check the battery. Dirt cheap, long life if properly maintained, and not too bad on recovery from overdraining. But how many people are going to check their battery to make sure it's got enough water? How many people even know what a battery looks like beyond the AAAs they stick in their remote? My girlfriend never even knew to check occassionally her tire pressure before I met her (at least she remembered to get oil changes). So I'm a proponent of AGM's for everyday vehicle use, especially in motorcycles where the battery might be very difficult to reach (helloooo Setaro).

All that said, I recently picked up an EarthX 12 cell for my Setaro; EarthX specifically for the BMS. Said Setaro came with an FLA. I wasn't too keen on an FLA in a motorcycle that might be dropped or see spills reguarly offroad, albeit with a very minimal chance of actual battery spillage. I wanted to replace it moreso in that you have to remove screws and fairing panels to see the battery, and more than one owner has dried their battery up within a few months of purchase. Heck, BMW even ran leads off the battery to under the seat in order to jump start the bike. It's also a fairly weird size that I had difficulty finding an AGM match -- I came up with two that would fit, provide more than a few aH, and also provide enough juice to actually crank the bike over. And one of those was frequently reported to last less than 1-2 years in the Setaro. So I decided to grab an LiFePO. It'd fit in the compartment and free up some room for additional things I plan on putting in (fuse blocks, relays, harnesses, etc).

Will it perform as well as an AGM or FLA over years? I dunno -- I deal more with Lithium polymer/cobalt batteries more often than LiFePOs. I just wanted something that would fit and I wouldn't have to worry about unless the bike's charging system went AWOL or something. The fact that it's lighter weight and smaller is just a side effect.

Soooo...yea. I'm with _cy_ in recommending AGM for general purpose automotive/motorsport use and LiFePO's or gels for more specific applications. FLA's are fine and all, but in terms of automotive or motorsport use are probably best left to select applications or to self-installed instances where an individual would actually check and maintain the battery. But that's just my opinion. If someone wants to power their vehicle with a gaint cluster of Duracell AA alkalines, they can be my guest.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:14 AM   #509
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Thread info very helpful

Excellent thread Cy! I found it very helpful in educating myself about which battery to to purchase for my GS.
Phil
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:45 PM   #510
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It's a Deka AGM. I read 11.2 at rest so off the bat it seems low. I can try a load test, which I had read about on another site but wasn't sure if it'd be so simple to perform.

I'll investigate further and read up on the FAQ.


It sounds like if it fails the load test I can try bringing it up with a running car and fail that simply replace it and try not to ruin another (assuming I did this and it wasn't bad off from the PO).
resting voltage of 11.2v is all but dead .. charge with your higher setting of 6amp.

use state of charge chart below for resting voltage after 4 hours or better yet overnight. your charging system should be putting out 13.8v to 14.2v at mid rpm, measured at battery. use a known to be correct meter.


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