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Old 06-19-2013, 07:01 AM   #1
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New tool in LEO's tool kit

Quote:
...the Court ruled that ignorance of the law does not give a defendant a free pass to assert the right to silence simply by being silent. While someone not in custody is not required to self-​​incriminate, such a person must positively assert that right to silence, even without being informed of having such a right (since informing comes at the time of arrest). The decision notes that there isn’t a formal process for asserting that right, but merely that it requires a positive action to make clear that the person is asserting that right.
http://www.logarchism.com/2013/06/18...ation-edition/

So, when LEO has stopped us and is questioning us, before we're arrested and Mirandized, anything we do not say can be used against us. We do not have to admit to doing anything illegal, and we must not lie,* but in order to safely say nothing, we have to say something about asserting our Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination. In the case in question, the person, before he were arrested and Mirandized, willing answered certain questions and remained silent for other questions. His willing answers were taken as waiving his 5th Amendment right, and his silence to other questions was told to the jury as an indication of guilt.** One may also be OK if they say nothing more than their name and address, or perhaps say that the info on the driver's license they handed over is valid, and then say nothing more.


*Police have the legal right to lie to us, but it is illegal for us to lie to the police.

**http://www.logarchism.com/2013/04/17...linas-v-texas/
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:35 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PT Rider View Post
http://www.logarchism.com/2013/06/18...ation-edition/

So, when LEO has stopped us and is questioning us, before we're arrested and Mirandized, anything we do not say can be used against us. We do not have to admit to doing anything illegal, and we must not lie,* but in order to safely say nothing, we have to say something about asserting our Fifth Amendment right against self incrimination. In the case in question, the person, before he were arrested and Mirandized, willing answered certain questions and remained silent for other questions. His willing answers were taken as waiving his 5th Amendment right, and his silence to other questions was told to the jury as an indication of guilt.** One may also be OK if they say nothing more than their name and address, or perhaps say that the info on the driver's license they handed over is valid, and then say nothing more.


*Police have the legal right to lie to us, but it is illegal for us to lie to the police.

**http://www.logarchism.com/2013/04/17...linas-v-texas/
That's the main problem - don't say anything if you're arrested.
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Old 06-19-2013, 09:39 AM   #3
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I watched some clip, by some guy claiming to teach law. He said don't say anything, cause it can be taken many different ways.

Problem is, if you are pulled over on the road, you are going to end up having to say something. I guess if you got caught doing 150 in a 25, with an underage hooker on the back, and have no hope of getting off, you can clam up. But usually you end up saying something.
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Old 06-19-2013, 12:19 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by SloMo228 View Post
That's the main problem - don't say anything if you're arrested.
Post-arrest, you'll be Mirandized anyway and you can decide if you want to respond or not. And at the same time you can invoke your right to have counsel.
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Old 06-19-2013, 03:19 PM   #5
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How about just dont break the law in the first place.

And if you get caught speeding just be an adult and take your ticket.
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Old 06-19-2013, 03:28 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by PT Rider View Post

*Police have the legal right to lie to us, but it is illegal for us to lie to the police.
It is not illegal to lie to the police about your OWN guilt or innocence.
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Old 06-19-2013, 03:58 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by SloMo228 View Post
That's the main problem - don't say anything if you're arrested.
Yeah, even the cops tell you that when they arrest you
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:10 PM   #8
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The police will ask you questions and use the answers against you before they arrest you. When you have been detained by a police officer for investigation or questioning dont answer any questions. ask for a lawyer.
When the officer continues to ask questions ask" Can I go now? or am I under arrest", unless the officer places you under arrest continue to ask the question "can I go now or am I under arrest". That is the only thing you should be saying to an officer after you identify yourself.
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:15 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Bucho View Post
How about just dont break the law in the first place.

And if you get caught speeding just be an adult and take your ticket.
So if you just don't break any laws, you won't get arrested.

I hate to tell you this but there are a lot of innocent people in jails for a myriad of things. A lot of times the charges are dropped at a later time for lack of evidence, or a Grand Jury fails to indict due to lack of evidence. Sometimes charges are never filed due to lack of evidence, doesn't mean you won't get arrested.
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Old 06-19-2013, 06:36 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Zerk View Post
I watched some clip, by some guy claiming to teach law. He said don't say anything, cause it can be taken many different ways.
You probably talking about this pair of videos





Both of them are must see.
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:17 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geepn View Post
The police will ask you questions and use the answers against you before they arrest you. When you have been detained by a police officer for investigation or questioning dont answer any questions. ask for a lawyer.
When the officer continues to ask questions ask" Can I go now? or am I under arrest", unless the officer places you under arrest continue to ask the question "can I go now or am I under arrest". That is the only thing you should be saying to an officer after you identify yourself.
Considering this is a riding forum, and most folks here will only be interacting with law enforcement for a minor traffic offense, I don't see how being antagonistic by invoking your rights during a traffic stop is going to be productive.

I suppose we have a few hardened criminals among us who would benefit from that advice, but for the rest of us its just asking for avoidable grief.
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Old 06-19-2013, 07:38 PM   #12
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One I learned from an attorney friend is if a LEO asks you a question then you simply respond by asking back: "Am I required by law to answer that question?" This is a situation where an officer cannot lie to you without violating your rights. Well-trained LEOs will not answer the question but respond by asking you yet another question. To which you should give the same response you did earlier.

Of course I am not advocating this approach for a simple traffic stop because the LEO will probably think you're a dick and write you up.
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Old 06-20-2013, 04:35 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genka View Post
You probably talking about this pair of videos





Both of them are must see.
The cop is so full of himself that he exaggerates or misspeaks about every 30 seconds.
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Old 06-20-2013, 05:15 AM   #14
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They changed the way things were worded slightly here in the UK a few years ago. Liberals pissed themselves in fear and started talking about how it was the end of days, a new police state was coming, etc.

What it meant in practice, for anyone other than "serious criminals"?
If you claim in court that the reason why you were doing 50 in a 30 was because you were rushing to defuse a nuclear bomb, this will be somewhat undermined if you didn't explain it at the time of your arrest/detainment. Unless of course, you can give a clear reason why you couldn't tell the policeman that at the time (like you thought he was a double agent).

What it really achieved was to reduce the chance of the bad guys thinking up "plausible enough" stories to justify their actions after the fact, or to collude with accomplices to come up with one. On balance, it was a good thing, for everyone but the bad guys, but by God, if you said that when they were bringing it in, you might as well have had a swastika armband on.
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Ceri JC screwed with this post 06-20-2013 at 06:43 AM Reason: typo made meaning ambiguous
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Old 06-20-2013, 06:16 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duck View Post
One I learned from an attorney friend is if a LEO asks you a question then you simply respond by asking back: "Am I required by law to answer that question?" This is a situation where an officer cannot lie to you without violating your rights. Well-trained LEOs will not answer the question but respond by asking you yet another question. To which you should give the same response you did earlier.

Of course I am not advocating this approach for a simple traffic stop because the LEO will probably think you're a dick and write you up.
pretty much same thing I learned

several years ago,I was designated driver, taking someone home, plenty of empties (returnable for deposit)rolling around in the bed of my pickup truck, I was stopped cause for some stupid reason (didn't dim my headlights for oncoming traffic on the other side of a 200ft wide median (our state regulation is diming @ 150 ft)

how it went

LEO " license & registration please
Me . hand LEO license & registration but did not speak
LEO "do you know why I stopped you"
Me, "No"
LEO" you didn't dim your headlights...... bla bla bla.... step out of truck
Me "am I under arrest"
LEO "not at this time, step out of vehicle please"
Me "no, not unless your arresting me"
LEO places me under arrest for DWI and mirrandizesme, I step out of car
Leo " Stand behind truck, walk heal to toe, yada yada
me, " no, I would like to speak to my lawyer, "
LEO, well, you seem to be ok, and apparently unarrested me let me go
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