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Old 06-24-2013, 04:00 AM   #31
Domromer
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Please don't turn this into a darkside argument. If you don't think it's safe then don't use it.
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Old 06-24-2013, 04:05 AM   #32
Cat0020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
Motorcycle engineers profit from lying to users by telling them not to use auto tires?

....oh. TIRE engineers profit from telling you not to use auto tires!
Tire (oil) industry profit from selling you a $90-$150 moto specific tire every 6-9k mi. instead of a $70-$90 capable car tire ever 15-25k mi.
Anyone or anything that could reduce or contradict that profitability would be likely promoted as "unsafe" or "unintended use".

Motorcycle engineer can test for ages and have results to back them up (but have they?).
I would still try to find out the application myself, if I believe my usage of car tire on my Burgman 650 can save me money and be safely used for my purpose.

My experience after riding a car tire on the rear wheel of my Bugman 650 for over 14k mi. without any incident is pretty solid evidence to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
Then. Why don't they just not MAKE car tires? Or make them as expensive as motorcycle tires?
I don't work for tire industry, I have no idea why they don't make car tire as expensive as moto tires. You find out and let all of us know.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:35 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Domromer View Post
Please don't turn this into a darkside argument. If you don't think it's safe then don't use it.
All right...a reasonable request.

Now, how come all the car-tires-are-cheaper types can come here and put their PRO arguments out...poorly-reasoned, IMHO...and rebuttal is call to crack down?

If it's not to be discussed, that's okay. But shouting down ONE side of the argument, is taking sides.

And there's the risk it might be the wrong side. And that risk is great on two wheels.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:56 PM   #34
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Yet if you never take the risk, how can you claim that it is unsafe for all?
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Old 06-24-2013, 07:51 PM   #35
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Yet if you never take the risk, how can you claim that it is unsafe for all?
Yes, indeed.

How do you know what would happen if you jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge...unless you did it?

How would you know what would happen if you tried to run your scoot on diesel fuel...unless you tried it?

How would you know what would happen if you went down on the road without ATGATT...unless you tried it?

How would you know you weren't a really-better rider...after you drank a fifth of Jack?

How does anyone know ANYTHING?




And...if it's unsafe for some on-road riders, it's unsafe for all. Because we all have to deal with the same traffic; the same roads; the same conditions.

If a sharp turn is going to put me on the edge of the tire; and have that edge roll, deform the tire, and/or skid from the teeny-tiny contact patch...it's going to do it for you as well.

You may never plan that sudden swerve. But when some idiot runs a stop sign with a trailer...and you can't stop...all you can do is steer around him...AND YOU CANNOT because you wanted to save a few bucks...that's when your scooter becomes one with his drawbar, your jewels one with the handlebar, and you become a grease spot on the far side of the pavement.

Because you "never needed" that ability. Like I needed it...yup, it happened to me.
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:21 AM   #36
vortexau
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cat0020 View Post
Yet if you never take the risk, how can you claim that it is unsafe for all?
I NEVER have inflated any tyre 60 psi HIGHER than recommended limits during installation. That's just simply playing smart, and by the rules.

100 psi is equal to 6.5 atm --
A astronaut can survive zero Atmospheric pressure (complete depressurization) for about 9-10 seconds. A change of six and one half that much? That's TOO much.
THE BODY AT VACUUM
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Old 06-25-2013, 09:39 AM   #37
Cat0020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
Yes, indeed.

How do you know what would happen if you jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge...unless you did it?

How would you know what would happen if you tried to run your scoot on diesel fuel...unless you tried it?

How would you know what would happen if you went down on the road without ATGATT...unless you tried it?

How would you know you weren't a really-better rider...after you drank a fifth of Jack?

How does anyone know ANYTHING?
Dude, you need to come up with senerio that are not idiotic to test your theories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
And...if it's unsafe for some on-road riders, it's unsafe for all. Because we all have to deal with the same traffic; the same roads; the same conditions.
Wrong, unsafe for some does not mean unsafe for all.

You and I, we do not deal with the same traffic.

You and I do not ride the same roads.

You and I do not ride in the same conditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
If a sharp turn is going to put me on the edge of the tire; and have that edge roll, deform the tire, and/or skid from the teeny-tiny contact patch...it's going to do it for you as well.

You may never plan that sudden swerve. But when some idiot runs a stop sign with a trailer...and you can't stop...all you can do is steer around him...AND YOU CANNOT because you wanted to save a few bucks...that's when your scooter becomes one with his drawbar, your jewels one with the handlebar, and you become a grease spot on the far side of the pavement.

Because you "never needed" that ability. Like I needed it...yup, it happened to me.
Rider response has more effects on the outcome of adverse riding conditions than difference in equipment or tires. A capable rider can maneuver through the exact same turn under similar conditions, regardless of what tire the vehicle has mounted.
If you have a hard time with tires that are mounted on your vehicle and keep loosing control of your vehicle because of it; then you are a lousy rider who can not adapt to different tires.

Practice in an empty parking lot for a few hours and take few hundred figure-8's to get yourself familiar with the tire's limitation might be easy enough to improve your skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vortexau View Post
I NEVER have inflated any tyre 60 psi HIGHER than recommended limits during installation. That's just simply playing smart, and by the rules.

100 psi is equal to 6.5 atm --
A astronaut can survive zero Atmospheric pressure (complete depressurization) for about 9-10 seconds. A change of six and one half that much? That's TOO much.
THE BODY AT VACUUM
Why are you inflating tires to 60 psi in the first place?

Are you drawing analogy between the durability of car tire vs human body in vacuum??
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:04 PM   #38
CaseyJones
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It seems like a religious faith.

They KNOW. They have their high apostles. Don't you dare bring FACT into the discussion!!!
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:03 AM   #39
Cat0020
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Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
It seems like a religious faith.

They KNOW. They have their high apostles. Don't you dare bring FACT into the discussion!!!
Religion is belief in someone else's experience; believing someone else's BS as truth.

Spirituality is having your own experience.

Do you have any of your own experience that you can claim as FACT?
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:01 PM   #40
CaseyJones
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Religion is belief in someone else's experience; believing someone else's BS as truth.
No. That's reasoning and applied logic. Some people are dishonest or are arguing stridently and loudly from assertion alone.

Others know the subject, and can give rational reasons for their position. It is up to an intelligent listener to weigh whether there is logic behind the assertion; or if the source of the quoted facts knows his material (maybe because he and his colleagues ENGINEERED the items in question?)

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Spirituality is having your own experience.
No. That's experience. It's valid but only partly. I can drive to the next state on tires with the cord showing. Doesn't mean it's safe or that anyone, anywhere, will make those miles with the belts exposed.

It only means I could do it, that time. To get a true picture, more facts are needed, including accident analyses; statistics on tire failures, tests on why tires lose traction in rain.

Quote:
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Do you have any of your own experience that you can claim as FACT?
Yep. I can claim I've read the comments of motorcycle writers and reviewers who interviewed motorcycle engineers and tire engineers.

I can use my knowledge of the dynamics of tire deflection to understand why a car tire would not be suitable under motorcycle-turning conditions.

All those come together in agreement. And then there's a loud poster on a BBS who INSISTS that until I DO it, I can't know what I'm talking about.
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Old 07-03-2013, 03:31 PM   #41
Cat0020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaseyJones View Post
No. That's reasoning and applied logic. Some people are dishonest or are arguing stridently and loudly from assertion alone.

Others know the subject, and can give rational reasons for their position. It is up to an intelligent listener to weigh whether there is logic behind the assertion; or if the source of the quoted facts knows his material (maybe because he and his colleagues ENGINEERED the items in question?)



No. That's experience. It's valid but only partly. I can drive to the next state on tires with the cord showing. Doesn't mean it's safe or that anyone, anywhere, will make those miles with the belts exposed.

It only means I could do it, that time. To get a true picture, more facts are needed, including accident analyses; statistics on tire failures, tests on why tires lose traction in rain.



Yep. I can claim I've read the comments of motorcycle writers and reviewers who interviewed motorcycle engineers and tire engineers.

I can use my knowledge of the dynamics of tire deflection to understand why a car tire would not be suitable under motorcycle-turning conditions.

All those come together in agreement. And then there's a loud poster on a BBS who INSISTS that until I DO it, I can't know what I'm talking about.
lame sauce as usual...
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Old 07-04-2013, 05:26 AM   #42
Domromer
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So you are just stating your opinion.
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Old 07-04-2013, 06:07 AM   #43
Cat0020
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Aren't we all?
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:29 AM   #44
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Where is the evidence or reports of dangerous handling, the close calls, the wrecks because of the use of a car tire on the rear of a bike other than in the unsubstantiated opinions or imagination? (that's right....virtually ZIPPO)

To be fair, I have read of ONLY one incident where a complete noob to the practice had a problem when negotiating a speed bump. Poor riding skills and reckless attitude were what got him and was NOT the complete fault of the tire. It was a failure on his part to control his bike and not take into account the different parameters his bike was operating under. (and not much different at that!!!) Anybody can screw up if they try to do something without investing some time learning about it first and approaching it with respect and care. Almost universally, darksiders will tell you to investigate to inform yourself before putting a car tire on the rear of your bike. Or anything untried for that matter.

Where is the evidence of safe use? (All over the place!!) And that's a FACT!
There are collectively several millions of miles of safe use. Really, should we take the word of a few who have never tested their theories nor experienced the practice regardless of the alphabet soup they have behind their name?
Mere say so of a few is NOT good enough for me in spite of what they SAY they know.

A reasonable person would see that a preponderance of evidence trumps in credibility over what is essentially mere opinion.

I rest my casey... er case . (for now)
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Old 07-04-2013, 10:42 AM   #45
CaseyJones
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Christ, why don't you just ride your tires down to the cord? You'd be about as safe and save all kinds of money.

Or, just run a ribbed tractor front tire...never, ever have to change it again.
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