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Old 06-29-2013, 12:23 AM   #16
AK1
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Joined: Nov 2011
Location: Fairbanks, AK
Oddometer: 10
Yo. It's Jon from frozen motor works. How are things? Not sure if you tried calling or not but I wanted to let you know that I could look at your bike but I'm leaving town on a trip Wednesday. Tomorrow I'm riding with my father in_law. Where are you and your bike now? My cell is 750 2573
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Old 06-29-2013, 01:07 AM   #17
chrisepp OP
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Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Oddometer: 14
Thanks for all the feedback and tips! I just got into Fairbanks recently and finally got wireless/cell access again. I am picking up the bike first thing tomorrow and I have already spoken to Jon and he is trying hard to help me out ( you are a rock star Jon! )

I'll probably need to do some initial diagnostic work on my own so will be using all of your input. I've never had this particular issue with an engine before so all your help is very welcome and appreciated.

Regarding the radiator cap. How do I diagnose if that is the issue? I picked up some bar head gasket sealer in case I need that, and more engine ice.


Having a place to work is helpful so dealing with Jon or Cycleworks is a great help. I'm new to adventure riding and I have to admit I'm impressed by the people thus far. You can be assured I'm trying to capitalize on all your experience and input!

Current plan is to pull the right tank and fill up the Coolant and see if it's bubbling. Might be worth a look before getting down to tightening up the head. Jon is not convinced it's the head gasket itself after I spoke to him about what happened so getting the right tank off and access to diagnose is a definite first step. This is a first for me so I am leaning on all your experience on this one. Should I expect water out the pipes and white smoke if the head gasket is leaking or not necessarily? I think the radiator test with it full and open should make it clear?

I'm sure the fan was running correctly, but I will check that and thermostat as well. I will flush the cooling system with water and run distilled so I can try sealing the leaking gasket if I need to. I don't have the time to replace head gaskets, so if it turns out its the head gasket then I will retorque and try sealing. Hopefully it's something else but the bit of dark residue on the radiator cap and the very quick loss of coolant makes me think that is what it is still.

Cheers,
Chris
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Old 06-29-2013, 01:14 AM   #18
chrisepp OP
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Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Oddometer: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by renogeorge View Post
Might be worth checking for water in the oil, even with WP rebuild. How about thermostat? Motor running, cap off, coolant flowing??

I would add that the WP on my 950 went bad. The filter was just slightly wavy. Very little sign of oil in the coolant. But my oil pressure light was flickering on and off. I always check the last thing I worked on--WP snap rings in correctly, impeller bolt tight, seal right in WP housing???Gaskets??
Unfortunately I had to do a lot on the last maintenance. New pistons and rings, valve job, timing chains, tensioners, oil bypass valve, water pump, gaskets... I may quickly pull the WP if the radiator doesn't show me it's the head gasket. Input on my previous post would still be greatly appreciated. :)
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Old 06-29-2013, 06:06 AM   #19
Orangecicle
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Location: West Des Moines, IA
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Chris, your description of having coolant all over your boot seems odd to me. If your overflow hoses are run correctly, the overflow goes from the radiator to the bottom of the overflow tank, and then from the top of the overflow tank out in front of the radiator through the hose that points straight at the ground. I don't see how that could blow coolant on your boot. Maybe I'm wrong.

I've had odd symptoms in the past where I pinched one of the overflow tubes when I put the tanks back on. The result was that the bike would build up pressure in the radiator, then it would build up pressure in the overflow. At some point, typically in the middle of the night, the pressurized system would blow and spew coolant all over the garage floor. Check to make sure that you don't have a pinched line. I kinda think that's not your problem, but it's a quick thing to check.

I changed my water pump over the winter. The result of that was that a warp in my inner clutch cover developed that allowed the oil passages that run on top of the clutch to leak into the water jacket that is close by. At that point, the oil pressure is higher than the water pressure, so oil was forced into the water, ending up at the top of the radiator as oily sludge. The issue for me became painfully obvious after I did 250 miles at 70 mph, after which I had straight motor oil in my overflow tank.

You mentioned you have sludge at your radiator cap, so think about something like that (clutch cover leak) going on as opposed to a head gasket issue. I thought my problem was head gaskets, and it wasn't. Although we did go ahead and rebuild the top end of my motor, we really fixed the problem just by taking the clutch cover to a machine shop that had a big surfacing table and just surfaced that part. Had I known that, I could have saved $1,500. Oh well.

All that said, if you find lots of bubbles coming into your radiator on your test, you'll know what your problem is.

Don't worry, you'll get it. Every problem has a solution.
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:40 PM   #20
chrisepp OP
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Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Oddometer: 14
Bad News

So... Things are not looking good at all.

First, huge thanks to Jon at Frozen Motor Works. He was already booked up for today but he really tried to help me out and went above and beyond. Rock solid guy.

I went to pick up my bike this morning, I found out that one of my touratech bags had been bashed on the front and the rear, and the touratech 'locked' console had been pried open instead of using the key on the key ring. Not happy at all about that. I had told them it didn't't have enough coolant in there and the oil was contaminated but tech made notes that he ran it for an hour and the oil was good but the low oil pressure light was on and it was making an awful racket and that it needs a top end rebuild because the piston slap he was hearing.

Now, I told the it has brand new pistons and rings, cam chains, tensioners etc and what had happened but that was all ignored and a diagnostic was made based on listening to it run for an hour with no oil pressure. They had topped up coolant with glycol based coolant instead of the engine ice I use and had mentioned, and it gummed up all the oil so there was no pressure. He ran it for an hour and overcooked my engine. Then they wanted to keep it for several weeks and do a total rebuild which I already had said was not possible as I have to head home to Vancouver and go back to work shortly.

Anyways, I went to do my own diagnostic. Checked that there was oil and topped up the rad with distilled water to check for bubbles. Start it, and it was blowing out terrible smoke and stench right away. Never did that while it was in my care, it was bad and very noisy. Killed it right away and drained the oil. Yup! Mayonnaise! That's when I knew what they had really done and that they ran it for an hour, I no longer know how bad the damage is and I am pretty sure they did abuse of my engine as well. It took about 45 minutes for all the sludge to drain out it was so bad (of course there is a lot left and needs to be flushed) I was running out of time. Getting frustrated with bad workmanship, my brand new touratech bag getting smashed as well as the accessory racks (front and back of pannier was smashed). I got the $100 diagnostic fee back for my troubles. I hope I don't find they fried my brand new top end too with that diagnostic session.

I don't have enough supplies to flush everything properly, or really the time as I only have one more day so I don't see doing it myself in that timespan. Clearly I'm not as fast as you folk. I'm new to adventure bikes and came from street bikes so don't feel up to the task on my own in such short time, and I don't want to mess up my in-laws vacation as well. So I think it will have to be trucked back, and I'll have to miss the main riding I did this trip for. Oh we'll...

So... For when I get back and pull this thing out. Would a head gasket allow that much coolant into the oil? Or is it too pressurized from the combustion chamber and would just blow it out the overflow? Water pump? That much? On a new shaft and gasket? Granted, the condition I got my bike back was far worse than what I gave it to them in so who knows how bad it as abused by them. I could be not that bad and they just let it overheat for an hour and made things really bad.

Suggestions? I tried not to rant too much but I'm pretty exhaust at this point and pretty upset at the shop. (NOT Jon and Frozen Motor Works! He was awesome and tried no set me up with what I needed to take care of this. The big store that initially worked on my bike is who I'm upset with)

The for a few drinks to cool off, then I'll see if I feel like trying anything further or if I am risking too much after what has been done to my bike. Any thoughts?

PS (Jon, I will get in touch. I tucked something away for you. Thanks for all your help. I Wally didn't want to interfere with your existing plans, and it was extremely nice of you to do what you did for me.)

Cheers,
Chris
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Old 06-29-2013, 08:50 PM   #21
chrisepp OP
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Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Oddometer: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orangecicle View Post
Chris, your description of having coolant all over your boot seems odd to me. If your overflow hoses are run correctly, the overflow goes from the radiator to the bottom of the overflow tank, and then from the top of the overflow tank out in front of the radiator through the hose that points straight at the ground. I don't see how that could blow coolant on your boot. Maybe I'm wrong.

I've had odd symptoms in the past where I pinched one of the overflow tubes when I put the tanks back on. The result was that the bike would build up pressure in the radiator, then it would build up pressure in the overflow. At some point, typically in the middle of the night, the pressurized system would blow and spew coolant all over the garage floor. Check to make sure that you don't have a pinched line. I kinda think that's not your problem, but it's a quick thing to check.



You mentioned you have sludge at your radiator cap, so think about something like that (clutch cover leak) going on as opposed to a head gasket issue. I thought my problem was head gaskets, and it wasn't. Although we did go ahead and rebuild the top end of my motor, we really fixed the problem just by taking the clutch cover to a machine shop that had a big surfacing table and just surfaced that part. Had I known that, I could have saved $1,500. Oh well.

All that said, if you find lots of bubbles coming into your radiator on your test, you'll know what your problem is.

Don't worry, you'll get it. Every problem has a solution.
At 65mph, would the coolant coming out of the overflow which is in front of my right foot and higher up, not be able to blow back on to my boot?

Btw, I should note that after the shop had it to diagnose there was no coolant in the radiator at all. I poured in two litres of water and at the breather screw it ran virtually clear right off the bat. And based on that, much of the coolant went into the oil. What had happened to me was the bike ran great at 4 bars on the temp gauge for a few minutes after I flushed coolant and did an oil change. Then in the space of about 1 minute the coolant overflow tank went empty and the temp went from 4 to 8 in that short time, so I shut it off right away to prevent over temp. The shop ran it for an hour according to their report in that condition and I got it back with sludge and 0 coolant. I'm not sure I can now diagnose it as it were or have to start all over again because of what they did? What do you guys think? Rad is currently filled with water and oil is drained but not replaced. I only have enough motorex to fill up, not use for flushing so I would have to buy some cheap Dino oil to clean things out.
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Old 06-30-2013, 06:28 AM   #22
Orangecicle
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Joined: Apr 2007
Location: West Des Moines, IA
Oddometer: 2,207
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisepp View Post
So... Things are not looking good at all.

First, huge thanks to Jon at Frozen Motor Works. He was already booked up for today but he really tried to help me out and went above and beyond. Rock solid guy.

I went to pick up my bike this morning, I found out that one of my touratech bags had been bashed on the front and the rear, and the touratech 'locked' console had been pried open instead of using the key on the key ring. Not happy at all about that. I had told them it didn't't have enough coolant in there and the oil was contaminated but tech made notes that he ran it for an hour and the oil was good but the low oil pressure light was on and it was making an awful racket and that it needs a top end rebuild because the piston slap he was hearing.

Now, I told the it has brand new pistons and rings, cam chains, tensioners etc and what had happened but that was all ignored and a diagnostic was made based on listening to it run for an hour with no oil pressure. They had topped up coolant with glycol based coolant instead of the engine ice I use and had mentioned, and it gummed up all the oil so there was no pressure. He ran it for an hour and overcooked my engine. Then they wanted to keep it for several weeks and do a total rebuild which I already had said was not possible as I have to head home to Vancouver and go back to work shortly.

Anyways, I went to do my own diagnostic. Checked that there was oil and topped up the rad with distilled water to check for bubbles. Start it, and it was blowing out terrible smoke and stench right away. Never did that while it was in my care, it was bad and very noisy. Killed it right away and drained the oil. Yup! Mayonnaise! That's when I knew what they had really done and that they ran it for an hour, I no longer know how bad the damage is and I am pretty sure they did abuse of my engine as well. It took about 45 minutes for all the sludge to drain out it was so bad (of course there is a lot left and needs to be flushed) I was running out of time. Getting frustrated with bad workmanship, my brand new touratech bag getting smashed as well as the accessory racks (front and back of pannier was smashed). I got the $100 diagnostic fee back for my troubles. I hope I don't find they fried my brand new top end too with that diagnostic session.

I don't have enough supplies to flush everything properly, or really the time as I only have one more day so I don't see doing it myself in that timespan. Clearly I'm not as fast as you folk. I'm new to adventure bikes and came from street bikes so don't feel up to the task on my own in such short time, and I don't want to mess up my in-laws vacation as well. So I think it will have to be trucked back, and I'll have to miss the main riding I did this trip for. Oh we'll...

So... For when I get back and pull this thing out. Would a head gasket allow that much coolant into the oil? Or is it too pressurized from the combustion chamber and would just blow it out the overflow? Water pump? That much? On a new shaft and gasket? Granted, the condition I got my bike back was far worse than what I gave it to them in so who knows how bad it as abused by them. I could be not that bad and they just let it overheat for an hour and made things really bad.

Suggestions? I tried not to rant too much but I'm pretty exhaust at this point and pretty upset at the shop. (NOT Jon and Frozen Motor Works! He was awesome and tried no set me up with what I needed to take care of this. The big store that initially worked on my bike is who I'm upset with)

The for a few drinks to cool off, then I'll see if I feel like trying anything further or if I am risking too much after what has been done to my bike. Any thoughts?

PS (Jon, I will get in touch. I tucked something away for you. Thanks for all your help. I Wally didn't want to interfere with your existing plans, and it was extremely nice of you to do what you did for me.)

Cheers,
Chris
Ouch. Very sorry for you. You could pull off the rear valve cover to see what happened, but my guess is that without oil pressure, the cams galled the cam journals, and the heads are toast. At that point, I would rent a U-Haul or truck and just get the bike home. I can't imagine that you can save the engine. Just too many things will be wrong inside. It would be wise to start looking for a replacement. Maybe you can find a 990SD used motor that you could drop in.

Yuck.
__________________
"I'd like to meet the joker who had the nerve to call this a road!" -- Walter Sigmann
"Gravity is a very fickle mistress." -- Unknown
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:15 AM   #23
chrisepp OP
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Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Oddometer: 14
That's what I am afraid of. And what recourse would I have with the shop if that turns out to be the case and they fried my heads... I will have to pull the valve covers and see. I am going to contact them and see what they say. I am sure they will deny any fault though if it proves they did indeed do so. If they don't take care of their mess I'll be sure to let you all know who it was as you may not choose to trust them to work in your gear if you are in the area... I just spent a tonne on rebuilding the engine and they go and do that?!? NOT happy...
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Old 07-25-2013, 09:22 AM   #24
chrisepp OP
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Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Vancouver, BC
Oddometer: 14
Trip Update

So I'm back from the trip. Bikes are home. We did manage to have some great fun on the trip regardless. My wife and I took turns riding her bike so we got to do at least some of the roads. I rode the top of the world highway on it. What a spectacular ride! We did not get to go far up the Dempster as we had run out of time with all the delays, but we did go up to about a half hour past tombstone and back. What we learned? We want to go back next year and ride to Inuvik! We also want to make it for Dust 2 Dawson. All the adventure riders we met on the way were fantastic and most helpful. We are new to this type of bike but are loving it.

So... about the KTM. I've been in touch with the owners of Northern Power Sports, where my bike got messed up, and was happy to say the initial contact since the incident was positive. I was expecting denials immediately but that didn't happen at all. I was asked to call them back when I have the engine out and we can see how badly damaged it was. They were going to speak to the mechanic. It's too early to tell what will happen, but that was a good sign to me.

So here is the thing. When I received the bike back, the mechanic's report said he ran it for an hour. He said it ran fine for the first while, then started running very badly and sounding like piston slap and blowing all kinds of smoke. So first thing I did was check the coolant. There was none. The radiator was completely empty. Not a good sign, as he had been running it in that condition. I filled it up with distilled water, and have found no static leaks at all (it came all the way home on truck and was still full, so that shows that it didn't leak out after the fact from the mechanic, it was indeed run empty..)

Well, I can only imagine how hot the bike must have been. Also, they had added glycol based coolant, which I had asked them not to do. I run engine ice to prevent the pancake batter. The mechanic noted there was no oil pressure at the end either. That would have been true as all the glycol killed the oil. At any rate. Would a KTM even run to zero coolant and no oil pressure? Or is there a good chance it was even seized.

My opinion is that there is not much I could trust not to be messed up on this engine at this point, but I want to be fair with what I request of Northern Power Sports. I'd really appreciate feedback as to what you experienced adventure owners would think needs a very close look. The engine was definitely totally overheated, badly, if not seized.

Any input would be appreciated.

Cheers,
Chris
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