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Old 07-09-2013, 05:55 AM   #571
trailer Rails
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CY,

I spent the last week or so trying to wade through this thread and am pretty convinced I need a LiFePO4 battery for my dirt bike bike.

It is a KTM200XC-W. 200cc 2stroke. It has a kicker and I always use the kicker to start the cold motor. The starter is only used on a warm motor. The battery is positioned up high under the seat, so a few pound weigh loss would be great. Any recommendations on a battery? All the lighting has been disconnected on the bike. The computer has it's own watch battery. I will ride in temps down into the teens.
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Old 07-09-2013, 06:23 AM   #572
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Here is a pic of the existing battery.

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Old 07-09-2013, 06:54 AM   #573
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Originally Posted by trailer Rails View Post
CY,

I spent the last week or so trying to wade through this thread and am pretty convinced I need a LiFePO4 battery for my dirt bike bike.

It is a KTM200XC-W. 200cc 2stroke. It has a kicker and I always use the kicker to start the cold motor. The starter is only used on a warm motor. The battery is positioned up high under the seat, so a few pound weigh loss would be great. Any recommendations on a battery? All the lighting has been disconnected on the bike. The computer has it's own watch battery. I will ride in temps down into the teens.
you've got a Yuasa 3AH battery with minimal starter requirements. starter usage only when bike is warm. this means most any LiFePO4 battery that fits into space available will work fine.

Shorai LFX18 or EarthX ETX18 should work if available space will fit.

with original battery weight of about 3.8 lb, not much weight savings to justify spending $$$ ... I'd stick with AGM .. but that depends on how important saving weight is to you?

_cy_ screwed with this post 07-09-2013 at 07:01 AM
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:29 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
you've got a Yuasa 3AH battery with minimal starter requirements. starter usage only when bike is warm. this means most any LiFePO4 battery that fits into space available will work fine.

Shorai LFX18 or EarthX ETX18 should work if available space will fit.

with original battery weight of about 3.8 lb, not much weight savings to justify spending $$$ ... I'd stick with AGM .. but that depends on how important saving weight is to you?

Weight savings is nice, I can notice a handling difference when the tank is down a gallon. I was thinking something like the tiny SYCL you have pictured. I think it weighs a lot less than a pound. Loosing 3 pounds would be great.
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:44 PM   #575
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Weight savings is nice, I can notice a handling difference when the tank is down a gallon. I was thinking something like the tiny SYCL you have pictured. I think it weighs a lot less than a pound. Loosing 3 pounds would be great.
4 cell LiFePO4 = 2.3AH actual .. that battery is no longer made. too small for most applications. your bike's original 3AH lead acid battery is tiny, so would fit your application.

for reference that 4 cell Sycl weight is 12 oz ... so you would save 3 lbs... note LiFePO4 batteries with external cables need extra care/protection for connectors and battery body.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:05 PM   #576
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Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
4 cell LiFePO4 = 2.3AH actual .. that battery is no longer made. too small for most applications. your bike's original 3AH lead acid battery is tiny, so would fit your application.

for reference that 4 cell Sycl weight is 12 oz ... so you would save 3 lbs... note LiFePO4 batteries with external cables need extra care/protection for connectors and battery body.
Do you know of anything that light and is still manufactured? I may not even need 2.3AH, I have a kick starter if I need it, it is just nice to be able to hit the starter button out of a stop or if I stall on a weird hill climb.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:47 PM   #577
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Do you know of anything that light and is still manufactured? I may not even need 2.3AH, I have a kick starter if I need it, it is just nice to be able to hit the starter button out of a stop or if I stall on a weird hill climb.
a four cell (26650) or 2.3AH is just about the smallest LiFePO4 motorcycle battery available.

check out an EarthX ETX12A or B... that would be smallest LiFePO4 EarthX makes.
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Old 07-17-2013, 12:32 PM   #578
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I know that the odyssey battery's are said to be maintenance free. I just got one and am installing it today. That said, curious to hear if anyone recommends I still install the leads for my battery tender. I currently use this battery tender on my lead/acid battery.

Would using this tender on the dry cell maint free odyssey HARM the battery?

Is it even necessary??? (I don't ride a hole lot, and when I do, shorter rides at slower speeds/rpm's around town....lots of stop lights)

**yes, I know odyssey makes a specific tender, but if I could avoid buying a new tender, I'd like to**
answer depends on your bike ... parasitic drain, if any determines if your AGM battery needs to be on a charger/tender.

for instance my bone stock R90S has a clock that will discharge a large AGM battery in a few months.

my R80G/S has no clock and no significant parasitic drain. Currently running a EarthX ETX36 = about 14amp hour actual. no drain problems, but seldom does a week go by without riding it.

AGM and LiFePO4 both have very low self discharge rates. so if you have a problem with battery going dead from sitting ... something is draining battery

some battery tender/chargers will kill a perfectly good battery, if left on long enough. best to confirm overcharge will not happen...

1. charge your battery to full
2. take a known to be correct meter, measure voltage from charger/tender.
3. at full charge, tender/charger if it has a maintenance mode will lower voltage to 13.3v-13.6v range.
4. normally a charger will put out higher voltage during bulk charge phase... 14.8v is highest desired voltage range for AGM

think water pressure = volts .... current = flow
if volts is not high enough, not enough pressure to push current into battery.

say a tender is putting out 15.2v so long as it's plugged in ... even if tender is only putting out a tiny 250 milliamps... left on your motorcycle battery at some point that tender will kill you battery.

that tender is designed for a full size wet lead acid battery .. which has a large self discharge rate... above charger will probably not hurt a full size wet PB, but will kill a motorcycle sized AGM.

recommended charger/tender is a Yuasa Smartshot 900 which safely charges AGM. output voltages also matches LiFePO4. so it's safe for both.
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Old 07-17-2013, 04:08 PM   #579
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Originally Posted by trailer Rails View Post
Do you know of anything that light and is still manufactured? I may not even need 2.3AH, I have a kick starter if I need it, it is just nice to be able to hit the starter button out of a stop or if I stall on a weird hill climb.
Antigravity Batteries makes models that are the most compact battery in the industry at every size level available bar none. I find it odd that Cy did not post that for you to give you a good answer on your question on finding a product to fit you application. We actually offer a hard case and waterproof design where the Sycle is shrink wrap and not waterproof.

Since you have a 2 stroke with Estart you would have to use a minimum 8-Cell battery since a 2 stroke does not have the starter reduction gearing of a modern 4-stroke. But within a month we will actually have have a new battery our... our EXTREME POWER SERIES...It will have the power of an 8-Cell in a 4-Cell case size. Very amazing advancement, it will easily start 1300cc motor and V6 trucks and is only 4" x 1" x 3.25" tall.

Our site is here http://antigravitybatteries.com/
Our small cases are here...http://antigravitybatteries.com/small-case-batteries/


Just want to point out that Antigravity is a viable option especially when you need the most compact battery available. In addition we are the supplier to Yamaha's GYTR line of products. And if you know Yamaha that is a BIG deal... they don't use your stuff if it sucks. Here we are on Yamaha's site http://www.yamahamotorsports.com/spo.../0/detail.aspx

You will rarely find us mentioned in Cy's thread though he knows us well because we have openly mentioned that we felt his posting is biased toward 3 brands and our position is, if you are a reviewer you should be objective and mention all brands and provide unbiased info. I feel once again this proves true from my perspective.

Regards
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:22 PM   #580
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Originally Posted by Antigravity View Post
Antigravity Batteries makes models that are the most compact battery in the industry at every size level available bar none. I find it odd that Cy did not post that for you to give you a good answer on your question on finding a product to fit you application. We actually offer a hard case and waterproof design where the Sycle is shrink wrap and not waterproof.

Since you have a 2 stroke with Estart you would have to use a minimum 8-Cell battery since a 2 stroke does not have the starter reduction gearing of a modern 4-stroke. But within a month we will actually have have a new battery our... our EXTREME POWER SERIES...It will have the power of an 8-Cell in a 4-Cell case size. Very amazing advancement, it will easily start 1300cc motor and V6 trucks and is only 4" x 1" x 3.25" tall.

Our site is here http://antigravitybatteries.com/
Our small cases are here...http://antigravitybatteries.com/small-case-batteries/


Just want to point out that Antigravity is a viable option especially when you need the most compact battery available. In addition we are the supplier to Yamaha's GYTR line of products. And if you know Yamaha that is a BIG deal... they don't use your stuff if it sucks. Here we are on Yamaha's site http://www.yamahamotorsports.com/spo.../0/detail.aspx

You will rarely find us mentioned in Cy's thread though he knows us well because we have openly mentioned that we felt his posting is biased toward 3 brands and our position is, if you are a reviewer you should be objective and mention all brands and provide unbiased info. I feel once again this proves true from my perspective.

Regards
totally correct ... reason I've not mentioned Anti-gravity much is very simple. I've not had Anti-Gravity batteries to do real world tests on.

there is NO way I'm posting performance data on any battery unless I can confirm with my own state of the art instruments.

it's well know that this thread currently has the largest amount of LiFePO4 motorcycle battery information on the WWW and is supported by several battery/charger mfg.

only promise that I've made to mfg is that I will be fair in posting feedback. when performance has not been up to spec's and/or one product performs better than another I've said so ..

for instance EarthX currently offers what promises to be the new state of the art in LiFePO4 batteries with internal load balancing and new to the industry.. feature to shut down battery when voltage drops below a set level. but since I've not yet received new series of EarthX batteries... you will not see any mention of performance until I receive new gen EarthX battery and have tested. for all I know MOFETS used to disconnect loads will totally fail under load.

when someone is asking what battery tender to purchase... naturally I'm going to recommend a Yuasa SmartShot 900 because I've tested that charger and know output voltages match AGM and LiFePO4 both. Cost is about same as Deltran tender .. since I've not tested a Daltran Battery Tender and Yuasa chose to support this thread by sending me a Yuasa SmartShot 900 costs ($27 amazon) about same and has a known/proven performance. guess which charger/tender I'm going to recommend?

despite multiple request for sample batteries to do testing upon. Anti-Gravity has chosen not to participate.

again .. I refuse to post performance data on any battery and/or charger unless I can verify performance first. If you still don't have my contact info.. please PM .. thanks for your understanding...

_cy_ screwed with this post 07-17-2013 at 05:31 PM
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:58 PM   #581
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Hi _cy_
An Odyssey battery is substantially different then a standard AGM. Odyssey uses modified chemistry, pure lead plates with no calcium or antimony, higher capacity hydrogen / oxygen combiners, and a case that does not vent till around 3x higher then a typical AGM.

Odyssey batteries if treated like a typical AGM will last as long or longer then any other AGM on the market but to maintain the highest performance and to get 10+ years of service out of them they need to at least occasionally be charged a whole lot harder then any other AGM.

No SMART charger designed for lead/acid 12 volt batteries will hurt an Odyssey and all will increase life at least some.

Odyssey batteries can be charged at 15.8 volts without ANY current limit and held at 15.8 for a month of Sundays with no concern of dryout

Commercial Odyssey chargers drive up to and hold 21 volts durring the desulfation cycle at the end of each and every charge. These chargers are not to be used by anyone that does not understand the need to dissconect battery from vehicle electronics durring commercial charge LOL.

For long 10+ year life and maximum performance, a smart charger designed for Odyssey batteries is required.

If you are okay with an Odyssey lasting about like other AGM batteries, any smart charger or none at all may be used.



Quote:
Originally Posted by _cy_ View Post
answer depends on your bike ... parasitic drain, if any determines if your AGM battery needs to be on a charger/tender.

for instance my bone stock R90S has a clock that will discharge a large AGM battery in a few months.

my R80G/S has no clock and no significant parasitic drain. Currently running a EarthX ETX36 = about 14amp hour actual. no drain problems, but seldom does a week go by without riding it.

AGM and LiFePO4 both have very low self discharge rates. so if you have a problem with battery going dead from sitting ... something is draining battery

some battery tender/chargers will kill a perfectly good battery, if left on long enough. best to confirm overcharge will not happen...

1. charge your battery to full
2. take a known to be correct meter, measure voltage from charger/tender.
3. at full charge, tender/charger if it has a maintenance mode will lower voltage to 13.3v-13.6v range.
4. normally a charger will put out higher voltage during bulk charge phase... 14.8v is highest desired voltage range for AGM

think water pressure = volts .... current = flow
if volts is not high enough, not enough pressure to push current into battery.

say a tender is putting out 15.2v so long as it's plugged in ... even if tender is only putting out a tiny 250 milliamps... left on your motorcycle battery at some point that tender will kill you battery.

that tender is designed for a full size wet lead acid battery .. which has a large self discharge rate... above charger will probably not hurt a full size wet PB, but will kill a motorcycle sized AGM.

recommended charger/tender is a Yuasa Smartshot 900 which safely charges AGM. output voltages also matches LiFePO4. so it's safe for both.
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Old 07-17-2013, 07:21 PM   #582
_cy_ OP
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Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
Hi _cy_
An Odyssey battery is substantially different then a standard AGM. Odyssey uses modified chemistry, pure lead plates with no calcium or antimony, higher capacity hydrogen / oxygen combiners, and a case that does not vent till around 3x higher then a typical AGM.

Odyssey batteries if treated like a typical AGM will last as long or longer then any other AGM on the market but to maintain the highest performance and to get 10+ years of service out of them they need to at least occasionally be charged a whole lot harder then any other AGM.

No SMART charger designed for lead/acid 12 volt batteries will hurt an Odyssey and all will increase life at least some.

Odyssey batteries can be charged at 15.8 volts without ANY current limit and held at 15.8 for a month of Sundays with no concern of dryout

Commercial Odyssey chargers drive up to and hold 21 volts durring the desulfation cycle at the end of each and every charge. These chargers are not to be used by anyone that does not understand the need to dissconect battery from vehicle electronics durring commercial charge LOL.

For long 10+ year life and maximum performance, a smart charger designed for Odyssey batteries is required.

If you are okay with an Odyssey lasting about like other AGM batteries, any smart charger or none at all may be used.
many thanks for the clarification and good to see you posting again ... guilty as charged of thinking Odyssey as a regular AGM. Odyssey certain gets rave feedback from LOTS of happy owners!

have had really good performance out of lowly Oriellys motorcycle AGM's

here's Odyssey charger profile with no mention of desulfation cycle .. if Odyssey chargers ramps to 21 volts during the desulfation cycle. explains warnings to only use with Odyssey batteries.


_cy_ screwed with this post 07-20-2013 at 06:48 AM
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Old 07-17-2013, 07:32 PM   #583
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
...to get 10+ years of service out of them they need to at least occasionally be charged a whole lot harder then any other AGM.
Joel, how is that performed on-vehicle? I mean, if I use the vehicle daily, I do not need to use any external charger.


Edited to add: I never did get an answer to my question.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JoelWisman View Post
For long 10+ year life and maximum performance, a smart charger designed for Odyssey batteries is required.
I would hope considering the price. I guess many would call that a long life. But I am soon entering my 15th year with a plain old flooded lead acid battery. And by the way, it starts the vehicle at -30C in the dead of winter.
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Old 07-18-2013, 10:39 PM   #584
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Thumb EarthX Customer Service

Hi All,
I am new here but wanted to give some feed back on this company.
Long story short, my 10 month old ETX18-C was starting to have trouble cranking my 650 V Star.
Never left me stranded or push-starting, but I was beginning to get concerned because I did not think that I should have to go through a cold start protocol in the middle of summer. Anything below 80*f and it would require 2 or 3 cranking attempts before it would crank fast enough for combustion, almost like the battery thought it was still winter and below 40.
I voiced this concern to Kathleen Nicoson @ EARTHX, WITHOUT any hesitation or hassle she sent out a replacement and even included a postage-paid return shipping label.
I installed the new battery and the bike fired right up with Gusto.
I have read here that the Shorai Co. gives good service.
Well, I am definitely pleased with the customer service at EARTHX.
THUMPER>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Old 07-19-2013, 05:32 AM   #585
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Long story short, my 10 month old ETX18-C was starting to have trouble cranking my 650 V Star.
Did you bother to check your charging system?

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I have read here that the Shorai Co. gives good service.

No better and certainly not longer than my flooded lead acid battery. ...and for a lot less money.
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