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Old 08-25-2013, 09:30 PM   #691
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Originally Posted by dtirell View Post
Not once they start doping or any other chemical enhancements.
Not sure I'm following you
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:06 PM   #692
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Not sure I'm following you

Do you want to see them make a living by their physical performance or do you want to see who has the most money and is willing to take the most risks to their long term health buy having the drugs do it for them?
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Old 08-26-2013, 08:32 AM   #693
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Do you want to see them make a living by their physical performance or do you want to see who has the most money and is willing to take the most risks to their long term health buy having the drugs do it for them?
You do realize steroids don't automatically "give" you muscles. Steroids is more so a training aid. People take them so they can train harder. Training harder makes you better. Taking steroids and not training harder and you'll be in the same situation then before you took them.

Look at the "sport" of bodybuilding. Those guys don't sit around playing x-box popping pills. They have trained and trained and trained. The most dedicated wins those competitions as one bad move can mean the difference in podium or not.

Steroids are way more common then you think, and if you've ever played a sport or go to a gym, it'd be impossible for you to throw a handful of rocks and not hit someone who's juicing. People who are against it are naive people who don't understand that it's not a miracle drug, don't understand that there is more to training then just doing it, or b/c they have some made up idea that it's immoral.

In closing:
To be a professional athlete you have to train harder then most and perform more then most. Which amounts to overtraining. Overtraining wrecks a body, short and long term. Testosterone/performance enhancing drugs fix a lot of those problems. With out them, you'd get one-two years out of an athlete before their body starts to fall apart. The public expects these athletes to perform, and expects them not to let them down. People expect way too much out of professional athletes and then shun them at the first sign of an "immoral" act.
If I was Lance, Barry Bonds, A-rod, etc.... I'd tell everyone of the cry babies to pack sand. Then laugh as you cheer on the other guy b/c he's "clean".
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Old 08-26-2013, 09:07 AM   #694
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Originally Posted by SpeedoJosh View Post
Look at the "sport" of bodybuilding. Those guys don't sit around playing x-box popping pills. They have trained and trained and trained. The most dedicated wins those competitions as one bad move can mean the difference in podium or not.
They do have drug free bodybuilding competitions for normal folks. The competitors train just as hard, but they don't look like the cartoonish vein popping circus freaks you see in the muscle mags. Of course, the only testing they do is a polygraph. At least that was my experience when I was pressured into entering one by the gym owner back in the late 90's.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:01 AM   #695
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Originally Posted by SpeedoJosh View Post
You do realize steroids don't automatically "give" you muscles. Steroids is more so a training aid. People take them so they can train harder. Training harder makes you better. Taking steroids and not training harder and you'll be in the same situation then before you took them.

Look at the "sport" of bodybuilding. Those guys don't sit around playing x-box popping pills. They have trained and trained and trained. The most dedicated wins those competitions as one bad move can mean the difference in podium or not.

Steroids are way more common then you think, and if you've ever played a sport or go to a gym, it'd be impossible for you to throw a handful of rocks and not hit someone who's juicing. People who are against it are naive people who don't understand that it's not a miracle drug, don't understand that there is more to training then just doing it, or b/c they have some made up idea that it's immoral.

In closing:
To be a professional athlete you have to train harder then most and perform more then most. Which amounts to overtraining. Overtraining wrecks a body, short and long term. Testosterone/performance enhancing drugs fix a lot of those problems. With out them, you'd get one-two years out of an athlete before their body starts to fall apart. The public expects these athletes to perform, and expects them not to let them down. People expect way too much out of professional athletes and then shun them at the first sign of an "immoral" act.
If I was Lance, Barry Bonds, A-rod, etc.... I'd tell everyone of the cry babies to pack sand. Then laugh as you cheer on the other guy b/c he's "clean".

So by your own comments it is not a display of physical ability but a display of well designed chemical cocktails.

If it is all about the juice, why don't athletes come clean and demand the fans support chemically enhanced sports? They don't because they too want to promote the idea that it is all about physical ability.

The fans also carry a significant part of the problem in that they demand more and more choosing to believe it is possible without enhancement and then have the gall to be shocked when it is shown the athlete used chems to get there.

Personally I would rather see it be all about physical ability since I think it take more work and heart to use the strengths you have (naturally) and work around your weaknesses then it does to buy a drug routine. I would also prefer to see athletes not put their health in jeopardy just to please the crowd.

You are welcome to your opinion as well, but at least be honest and admit that it is about biochemistry and not just physical ability.
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:21 AM   #696
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Originally Posted by SpeedoJosh View Post
You do realize steroids don't automatically "give" you muscles. Steroids is more so a training aid. People take them so they can train harder. Training harder makes you better. Taking steroids and not training harder and you'll be in the same situation then before you took them.
i believe this has been shown to be false- iirc, there have been studies that showed anabolic steroids increase muscle mass even without working out.
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:27 AM   #697
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It appears you didn't read what I said. Yes the "biochemistry" helps, but without their physical ability it would be worthless. Physical ability gets you started, the biochemistry helps maintain and grow past natural ability for the demands of the sport. An 18y/o kid isn't going to do a cycle of steroids and automatically be a pro. He lacks the PHYSICAL ABILITY. Lance beat the best juicers in the business. Sure he juiced, but his "physical ability" from training better then the rest put him over the top. I could take 10x the stuff lance took, not going to make me get up that hill faster then him.


Why don't the athletes come out??? Are you serious? People freak out when someone gets caught. Look at this thread. We wouldn't be having this conversation if people weren't so naive. OMG, a top professional athlete is juicing!!! I'd be more surprised to find a top athlete not juicing.
Plus it's illegal. Same reason you don't see people openly admitting drug use. The stigma that follows steroid users is the same, if not worse. People view drug users as simply that. A user. The public views steroids users as not only drug users but cheaters. Not hard to figure that one out.
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:32 AM   #698
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i believe this has been shown to be false- iirc, there have been studies that showed anabolic steroids increase muscle mass even without working out.
No shit. But on what level is the point. You're talking minimal amounts of gain. Go ahead and do a couple cycles without doing any physical activity. Then let me know how much you look like a pro bodybuilder, how much you can DL, or how fast you can pedal your bike up a hill.

You're way better off working out only a few times a week instead of doing a cycle without physical activity.
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Old 08-26-2013, 02:37 PM   #699
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It appears you didn't read what I said. Yes the "biochemistry" helps, but without their physical ability it would be worthless. Physical ability gets you started, the biochemistry helps maintain and grow past natural ability for the demands of the sport. An 18y/o kid isn't going to do a cycle of steroids and automatically be a pro. He lacks the PHYSICAL ABILITY. Lance beat the best juicers in the business. Sure he juiced, but his "physical ability" from training better then the rest put him over the top. I could take 10x the stuff lance took, not going to make me get up that hill faster then him.


Why don't the athletes come out??? Are you serious? People freak out when someone gets caught. Look at this thread. We wouldn't be having this conversation if people weren't so naive. OMG, a top professional athlete is juicing!!! I'd be more surprised to find a top athlete not juicing.
Plus it's illegal. Same reason you don't see people openly admitting drug use. The stigma that follows steroid users is the same, if not worse. People view drug users as simply that. A user. The public views steroids users as not only drug users but cheaters. Not hard to figure that one out.

Maybe they are viewed that way because they are. But if it is so important to the sport why do they not make the effort to change the view and work to make it legal?
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Old 08-26-2013, 04:34 PM   #700
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Maybe they are viewed that way because they are. But if it is so important to the sport why do they not make the effort to change the view and work to make it legal?

It's hard enough trying to convince people that eating fat doesn't make you fat.

Not to mention that if they made it legal, people would abuse it, like any other substance. Steroids are exactly the same. Plenty of people cycle on and off correctly and are perfectly healthy. Others abuse it, (more is better mentality) and that's where it gets its bad name.

I expect the view of it will lessen in years, especially since they are pushing TRT so much on mainstream tv. So in time, people will realize it's not this monster it's made out to be.



On a different aspect, the people running these organizations know of its use. They understand that these athletes are able to do what they do b/c of it. But, these athletes bring in the $$$ so they don't care. Only time they act like they do is when the public gets wind of an athlete using and freaks, so they play innocent and push punishment. I expect that, plus Lance being cocky (rightfully so) is what brought to his demise. If he walked around kissing babies and handing out Tour De France tshirts they would of protected him more. But once he was backed into the corner with no escape, the committee has no choice but to follow through with punishment. If they didn't they'd be condoning an illegal act. It's all about public relations and being PC.

The aspiring athletes and their coaches know the way to the top, and it's up to the athlete to make the call. You can be good, or you can run with the best. Make the pick. Doesn't matter to them, b/c there is a line of 100 more waiting for the chance.
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Old 08-27-2013, 08:41 AM   #701
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Not to mention that if they made it legal, people would abuse it, like any other substance. Steroids are exactly the same. Plenty of people cycle on and off correctly and are perfectly healthy. Others abuse it, (more is better mentality) and that's where it gets its bad name.

I find this part amusing. So people only use responsibly if it is illegal?


As to claim of being perfectly healthy, if you are honest the jury is out on that point. Yes they may be healthy today as some risks may not show up until years later. The reality is there have not been a lot of long term detailed studies on the overall impact of some of these drugs.

Beyond this, personally I think it is a very selfish attitude to demand so much from athletes that we require them to over train and feel the requirement to take experimental drugs to enhance their performance to the level to meet the fans demands.
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Old 08-27-2013, 09:02 AM   #702
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No shit. But on what level is the point. You're talking minimal amounts of gain. Go ahead and do a couple cycles without doing any physical activity. Then let me know how much you look like a pro bodybuilder, how much you can DL, or how fast you can pedal your bike up a hill.

You're way better off working out only a few times a week instead of doing a cycle without physical activity.
no. first, you kind of implied that there was no gains from steroids with no exercise ("Taking steroids and not training harder and you'll be in the same situation then before you took them"). second, the effect is significant- taking steroids and NOT exercising can be MORE effective than exercising without steroids in terms of gaining muscle mass.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056...articleResults
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Old 08-27-2013, 03:27 PM   #703
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I find this part amusing. So people only use responsibly if it is illegal?
Sorry, meant to say MORE people would abuse it. As of now, you can get it pretty easily. If it was available at GNC.com, then the abuse would be ridiculous.
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Old 08-27-2013, 05:33 PM   #704
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"The reality is there have not been a lot of long term detailed studies on the overall impact of some of these drugs."


Perhaps but the fact is steroids have been used by athletes since the 40's and there are no deaths attributed to their use (abuse). Before someone trots out Lyle Alzado his own Dr. states his brain cancer was not steroid related.

Watch "Bigger, Stronger. Faster". An interesting movie about PED's.
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Old 08-27-2013, 05:58 PM   #705
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