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Old 08-20-2013, 03:30 AM   #16
ohgood
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joexr View Post
Yeah , ME. He made a good attempt , there just wasn't any experience or knowledge behind it.
are we still talking about testing deformation of orings via different fluids (fairly simple) or something like bone reconstruction surgery, or maybe rocket science ?
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Old 08-20-2013, 08:27 AM   #17
lnewqban
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GO_OUTSIDE! View Post
I have an RK Xring chain that has thrown its orings in under 10,000 miles with no other signs of wear(stretching). The front sprocket has also worn down to nubs while the rear is beautiful.
I have been using a Scottoiler with the recommended alternative lubricant of ATF fluid. It is set up to keep the chain wet but not throw oil everywhere.
I am replacing the chain and sprockets today and am hoping to avoid having similar results.
Does anyone have any input?
If it helps, the chain the chain had 3 tight links from the beginning that never worked themselves out.
The X-rings are more fragile than the O-rings, although they offer a better seal (double).
With good result and for years, I have used ATF mixed with around a 10% of 80W-90 gear oil.

Maybe an incorrect location of the points of delivery of the oil has been the cause of your problem.
The drops should hit the X-rings directly, since those are the only things that need to be lubricated and conditioned in sealed chains.

If the lubricant is delivered over the sides of the rear sprocket, only the rollers will receive it, leaving the sealing rings dry and exposed to high friction against the plates of the chain.

It is unlikely that a chain that has not stretched yet causes damage to the teeth of any sprocket, unless that sticky lubricant over the rollers makes a grinding paste with dirt.
The good thing about ATF is that tends to keep the surface of the rollers free of dirt.

lnewqban screwed with this post 08-20-2013 at 08:34 AM
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:17 AM   #18
GO_OUTSIDE! OP
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Although I am using the scottoiler twinjector system delivering oil to both faces of the rear sprocket, as per scottoilers directions, the oil gets to the entire chain surface.
This may have more to do with a daily dose of fine rock dust. The rollers have been reduced to nearly one half of their original width on many links.
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Old 08-22-2013, 10:38 AM   #19
GO_OUTSIDE! OP
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I just got my answer from RK chains:
"
I just talked to our warranty department and they said yes the reason as to why all your x rings are coming off is most likely because of the ATF. ATF fluid is too thin and actually acts a mild degreaser and it will penetrate past our x ring seals and into the chain thus, ruining all the lubrication on the inside of your chain and causing heat and fiction. Also, as Im sure you know some ATF can cause rubber to expand which would create an issue as well."

Food for thought.
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Old 08-22-2013, 02:06 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GO_OUTSIDE! View Post
I just got my answer from RK chains:
...............
Food for thought.
A long way to blame the consumer for not using the recommended "special" lubricant.

My chain has been lubricated as explained above for more than 40K miles, showing no signs of measurable elongation or damaged seals.
Maybe my ATF is "special".

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Old 08-22-2013, 03:02 PM   #21
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Nitrile Butadiene (Buna-N) is compatible with automatic transmission fluid: http://www.sealanddesign.com/categor...ility/489.html http://www.rlhudson.com/O-Ring%20Boo...aterial12.html

The "ATF is getting past the seals and displacing the oil" argument makes no sense. I expect RK is looking for any excuse available to not honor their warranty. Good to know.
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:20 AM   #22
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Has anyone used chainsaw bar oil? Bailey's lumbering supply sells a product called Motion Lotion. It doesn't have detergents or seal conditioners but it is exceptionally "sticky."
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Old 08-23-2013, 02:08 AM   #23
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I've used ATF with good results for years. The reason to use ATF is that if you ride dirt or dusty conditions the dirt flings off rather than sticking and turning into grinding paste.

Lube is needed to do three things, stop rust, keep the O-rings moist so they don't tear and provide some film to reduce the wear between chain rollers and the sprockets. ATF does that all that adequately without being a dirt trap.

I suspect the OP's problem is scoring an old chain, but it is possible RK use a different rubber to the rest of the industry.

Pete
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Old 08-23-2013, 08:04 AM   #24
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the directions for all the japanese chains i have used all recommended using gear oil for lube....
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Old 08-23-2013, 11:52 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windwashed View Post
Has anyone used chainsaw bar oil? Bailey's lumbering supply sells a product called Motion Lotion. It doesn't have detergents or seal conditioners but it is exceptionally "sticky."
As a lad, back when the Earth's crust was still cooling, I used Oilzum Bar & Chain oil on my minibike and then Ducati 100.
Although it was very "sticky" as well, it flung off wildly, making a mess, and attracted dirt like flies to sh*t.
The biodegradable canola oil aspect is interesting, but progress really has been made in motorcycle purpose-directed chain lube.

If you want to try it out, please let us know your experience. Hopefully, you have a chainsaw to use the rest of the oil if your motorcycle results are unsatisfactory.
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Old 08-28-2013, 10:46 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnewqban View Post
A long way to blame the consumer for not using the recommended "special" lubricant.

My chain has been lubricated as explained above for more than 40K miles, showing no signs of measurable elongation or damaged seals.
Maybe my ATF is "special".
You think that was a along way? You should see the email reply from RK when I quoted some of the pro atf replies from this thread! Wow!
I'll save you the reading and just say when RK means atf is a penetrant they mean it will swell the orings causing them to break and thereby allowing the atf to wash out the grease.
Ill see how this DID works out me.
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:51 AM   #27
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Been using "used" motor oil thinned with Marvel Mystery oil. Have had no problems with the Scotoiler and excellent longevity from the chain and sprockets.
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Old 08-28-2013, 11:05 PM   #28
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Which kind of ATF ? Type F? Or Delvac? Or ?? There are significant differences in thier viscosity and behaviour. They are all in the Hydraulic
fluid family which will raise heck with some rubber compounds.. YMMV.
They also have drastically different friction modifiers.. I'd buy 0W20 in the cheapest form available..

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Old 09-01-2013, 11:00 PM   #29
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ATF Chain Lube

I have been using ATF as chain lube for the last 80K+ miles on my DL-650.

I get about 30K out of the chains but when they do wear the manner in which they degrade if very strange.

The last chain I just replaced I spent some time investigating and discovered a few things.

  • Like others have said the ATF does NOT affect the O-Rings.
  • Due to the high level of detergents and the thin viscosity the chain stays very clean and free of grit

    This is the interesting part
  • All of the grease in the chain between the pins and the rollers is gone, instead what is there is a very thin oil like substance.
I beleive what is happening here are the o-rings allow the ATF to work past them into the area that is occupied by the factory grease. Due to the high detergent and cleaning ability of the ATF this is broken down in a thin non shock absorbing material unlike the grease that was there.


What I found in my chains was minimal wear of the sprockets front and rear. BUT the pins were work to the point of it sounded like the chain was crunchy, but NONE of the rollers were damaged or missing.


Personally I am moving away from ATF and back to oil (I am using Rotella synth for now) to see if this makes any difference. For reference here are some details of how the bike is treated.


- DL650 wit over 110K on the original power-train

- 90 mile commute each day round trip to work
Stop and go freeway traffic both directions.
- Lube is applied to the chain via the chain oiler every morning when I leave the garage. I do not apply for the ride home. It gets about 30CC of oil per application
- Bike is ridden year round in all condition with only a top box for the helmet, not luggage, racks or extra weight.
-Stock gearing


Dunno if this helps but just throwing in my .02
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Old 09-02-2013, 01:41 PM   #30
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The topic certainly has entertainment value with plenty of contradictions and conflicting opinions; much like any oil thread. Here is yet another thread heralding WD-40 as the chain lubricant of choice. Which, if you believe some of the o-ring chain manufacturers does seem to apply since several state to only clean the chain with kerosene (i.e. the primary component of WD-40): http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7368515

If I can get 20,000+ miles without any maintenance other than adding ATF to the oiler - that's good enough for me. YMMV.
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