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Old 09-23-2013, 07:32 AM   #31
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 1,010
Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
Found some documentation that may help. Its a PDF - so had to link it.

http://www.jackscycles.com/files/Gas...nual_print.pdf

I dont think the rebound delay is meant for us mortals. But if your tony or adam, evidently its a great mod. Maybe better for indoors? Keeps the tire on the hit face longer.
Thanks! That doc abou the top or "factory" model Reiger shock is really helpful for setup and understanding how it is adjusted works.

It's looking to me like the Reiger is a bladder accumulator shock where the gas reservoir is around the outside of the bulged portion of the shock. No separating piston that would block, oil, hardware, and adjustments in the top of the shock.

Location of the compression "hydro stop" and the "bottom rebound" extension delay adjusters show what they are likely doing is using an extension of the shock rod beyond the valve stack that gets inserted into a metered counterbore in the head of the shock. The two adjusters are ball check valve flow control adjusters. On the compression hit at full travel, the rod extension flies into the counterbore and the only way out for the oil is the meter valve. On return stroke that vale's check ball closes and you have another meter valve for extension. These are some classic timing circuit hydraulic tricks applied to a shock.

Pretty slick stuff.

I found the following in the document interesting.

The above mentioned spring rates are for the 2011 Raga Replica bikes for club level drivers. We advise more technical drivers to use one step softer spring and less technical drivers to use one step harder spring then quoted in the list. Because the 2010 and 2011 Raga Replica bikes have a different link systems do we advise to use a 5 N/mm stiffer spring on the 2010 bike.



This points to the later model Pros having a rising rate linkage with a less steep rise in rate, being more plush feeling deeper into the travel. It also means the shock is slightly softer than if it were on the older frame with the longer dogbone links.

I pick up on that difference coming from my elliptical-tube frame 2009 bike. I like the more predictable feel of the older linkage during rear end hops, but I really appreciate the added plushness of the newer linkage.

Note their spring rate statements. The use Newtons per millimeter (N/mm) A Newton is .225 pounds and .102 kilograms. Catch that they call for more skilled riders use a softer spring. That's counter-intuitive, but correct.


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Old 09-23-2013, 08:27 AM   #32
laser17
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I caught that too (the spring recommendations) and initially made me scratch my head- but makes senses as the advanced rider makes better use of there legs.

Cool explanation on the shock. Glad the pdf helped. It looks likes a GG specific document, but I cant find it on there site (or the Reiger site) anymore. weird.

With all the different features on the various shocks, I was told that the shock that came on the GG Race can not be upgraded into a "reiger raga factory". The GG Raga shock can be upgraded. (not sure of the $ though)
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Old 09-23-2013, 08:53 AM   #33
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 1,010
Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
I caught that too (the spring recommendations) and initially made me scratch my head- but makes senses as the advanced rider makes better use of there legs.

Cool explanation on the shock. Glad the pdf helped. It looks likes a GG specific document, but I cant find it on there site (or the Reiger site) anymore. weird.

With all the different features on the various shocks, I was told that the shock that came on the GG Race can not be upgraded into a "reiger raga factory". The GG Raga shock can be upgraded. (not sure of the $ though)
The Race's Reiger shock is probably just fine. All the adjustments are BS if your shock is working as you need it to.

You've given my another clue. If the Raga shock can be upgraded, I wonder is all that factory busy-ness is based on the presence of the compression adjuster on the Raga, which itself may be based on an extension of the rod? The added 'factory' adjustments simply being circuits in the 'factory' thread-on head?

It'll be interesting to see what's in the Raga shock when I get around to it.
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Old 09-26-2013, 06:18 AM   #34
motobene OP
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Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
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Received the Reiger "Factory"-version shock from the official Reiger importer Stewart Preston. Reiger, by the way is Dutch for Stork. In Dutch it'd be unpronounceable as both the R and G are very hard guttural, like rolling up a huge lugee (hocker) to lock and load. To the American tongue it is pronounced Rai-gurr.

The Factory version of their shock hosts a gaggle of adjusters. The additional adjusters beyond the Raga OEM shock are:

- Low-speed compression
- "Hydro-stop" adjustable timing of full compression at end of travel
- "Bottom rebound" adjustable timer for releasing from the "hydro-stop" position at full compression

The rebound adjuster has an additional purple knob around it, but I can't get it to move so I think it is more a cosmetic bit.

Here are pix:







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Old 09-30-2013, 12:09 PM   #35
motobene OP
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Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
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I was asked about the Factory shock several times at the Peru, KS 2-day. I'm sorry, guys, for not bringing it with me.

I just took a call from fellow who took his Reiger apart. The biggest pain, he said is how they gas and de gas the shock. Otherwise it's a conventional thread-in seal head shock. This and other info helps. I'll get a round to the disassembly project when I can.
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Old 10-21-2013, 03:53 PM   #36
Jonny042
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Reiger - more questions than answers!

This weekend I flipped my Reiger shock so it has the reservoir at the bottom, away from the heat of the exhasut. Since mine is a "race" model Gas Gas it only has one adjuster (at end of the rod) and nothing on the body. I can still reach the adjuster using a screwdriver, same as adjusting the ohlins on my 2011.

At the same time I put the original 70nm spring back on. I have been riding on a 75nm spring but have been concerned that the bike was oversprung and underdamped for my weight. I was on the wrong side of 200 when I got the spring but am down to 185 or so - I also had a replaced one front spring with a stiffer on but went back to stock in the front too.

Anyway, it was a piece of cake to flip it over, but when I went to give the bike a bounce after reassembly the rear suspension didn't seem to be moving freely. Took the eyes apart again and checked for binding, etc. then upon reassembly I realized that the damping setting I was on (5 clicks out from max) was the reason it didn't seem to be moving freely. I had to back it out another 10 clicks before it seems right to me.

The strange thing is there was a real lack of damping a while back, and that is why I was at such a "high" damping setting.

Is there some reason why the damping characteristics of the shock would change drastically? I mean it's obvious there are a few ways for a shock to LOSE damping, but gaining? .... not so sure.

I am pretty confused. And a little worried that this thing seems to have a mind of its own......

Any insight for me?
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Old 10-21-2013, 04:11 PM   #37
laser17
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The spring change would affect it. A lower K spring would effectively decrease comp damp and increase rebound damp. Is it really the slower rebound your feeling?
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Old 10-22-2013, 02:59 AM   #38
crazybond700
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Another possability is that you killed the clicker. always be carefull when turning those things, if you click them too far you can damage the inside.

I come from the Netherlands, live near reiger actualy.

Have some video's and manuals will try to put them up.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNm2zyzKV7U
sorry for the ''dutch'' english!

http://www.lewisportusa.com/manuals/...ock_manual.pdf
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Old 10-22-2013, 07:54 AM   #39
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny042 View Post
This weekend I flipped my Reiger shock so it has the reservoir at the bottom, away from the heat of the exhasut. Since mine is a "race" model Gas Gas it only has one adjuster (at end of the rod) and nothing on the body. I can still reach the adjuster using a screwdriver, same as adjusting the ohlins on my 2011.

At the same time I put the original 70nm spring back on. I have been riding on a 75nm spring but have been concerned that the bike was oversprung and underdamped for my weight. I was on the wrong side of 200 when I got the spring but am down to 185 or so - I also had a replaced one front spring with a stiffer on but went back to stock in the front too.

Anyway, it was a piece of cake to flip it over, but when I went to give the bike a bounce after reassembly the rear suspension didn't seem to be moving freely. Took the eyes apart again and checked for binding, etc. then upon reassembly I realized that the damping setting I was on (5 clicks out from max) was the reason it didn't seem to be moving freely. I had to back it out another 10 clicks before it seems right to me.

The strange thing is there was a real lack of damping a while back, and that is why I was at such a "high" damping setting.

Is there some reason why the damping characteristics of the shock would change drastically? I mean it's obvious there are a few ways for a shock to LOSE damping, but gaining? .... not so sure.

I am pretty confused. And a little worried that this thing seems to have a mind of its own......

Any insight for me?
When I attempted to flip mine over I found a very slight interference between the wide end and the suspension linkage area at full shock extension. I was in a big hurry to make a 2-day event, so I scrambled to fit it right side up, popping the eye spacers back out and pressing them back in. The 2013 Replica and maybe 2014 versions may have some minor change to deal with the interference. The Race shock may have no interference, as it has not compression adjuster bulge. Perhaps I had the compression adjuster flipped wrong way around? As I said, I was in a hurry.

I also have yet to have the dedicated time to fit and test the Factory version shock and get into my current Raga-level shock.

I find is hard to understand how a 5 N/mm difference in the spring would provide a radical change in rebound speed (but it's possible). 5 N over - what is it - 50mm total travel will be 250 N, which is 25,5 kg or about 56 pounds more extension force at full compression.

Reiger recommends a SOFTER spring the more "technical" a rider you are. That's contra-intuitive.

The loss of damping previously that you describe is hard to figure out. These are pressurized and closed systems that tend not to fail in some way and then un fail. But stranger things have happened.
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Old 10-22-2013, 08:55 AM   #40
laser17
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What is the stroke distance of these things. My guess would have been more like 65mm - but have never actually measured it. (counting the bump stop compression)

Looking forward to the factory test, but think you will have your hands full there. Lots going on, with much of it geared toward the Pro rider. On paper, I see the HS damping as being very useful feature to even mere mortals, so most interested what you think of how well that actually works.
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Old 10-23-2013, 01:05 PM   #41
Jonny042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
I find is hard to understand how a 5 N/mm difference in the spring would provide a radical change in rebound speed (but it's possible). 5 N over - what is it - 50mm total travel will be 250 N, which is 25,5 kg or about 56 pounds more extension force at full compression.

Reiger recommends a SOFTER spring the more "technical" a rider you are. That's contra-intuitive.

The loss of damping previously that you describe is hard to figure out. These are pressurized and closed systems that tend not to fail in some way and then un fail. But stranger things have happened.
I do tend to be very aware, and careful, of the possibility of damaging the adjuster, when adjusting it. Perhaps I came upon a sticky spot on the adjuster, and thought it was "cranked" when really it wasn't - that would explain it - I may have gotten lost in the range of clicks. It's the only reasonable explanation.

Went riding yesterday (barely above freezing!) and all seems to be well with the shock. It occurred to me that maybe I should flip it back upside down, to keep it warm!!!
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:56 AM   #42
motobene OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laser17 View Post
What is the stroke distance of these things. My guess would have been more like 65mm - but have never actually measured it. (counting the bump stop compression)

Looking forward to the factory test, but think you will have your hands full there. Lots going on, with much of it geared toward the Pro rider. On paper, I see the HS damping as being very useful feature to even mere mortals, so most interested what you think of how well that actually works.
It was a guess for me. The stroke also depends on the hit... the amount the end-of-travel bumper compresses.

Yeah I'll get around to it - eventually. The ranch projects have been flat worn out all the time. My only respites are my few morning hours where I do paper work and play a little here.

motobene screwed with this post 10-25-2013 at 07:20 AM
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Old 10-24-2013, 07:58 AM   #43
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 1,010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny042 View Post
I do tend to be very aware, and careful, of the possibility of damaging the adjuster, when adjusting it. Perhaps I came upon a sticky spot on the adjuster, and thought it was "cranked" when really it wasn't - that would explain it - I may have gotten lost in the range of clicks. It's the only reasonable explanation.

Went riding yesterday (barely above freezing!) and all seems to be well with the shock. It occurred to me that maybe I should flip it back upside down, to keep it warm!!!
A warm and cold-weather shock position... I like it! Too bad the eye spacer aren't the same width to make it easier to flip over. I think most of the time heat is not an issue, as many shocks do OK at just under boiling temp of water. And how many of us motocross these things around the loop on a hot day and when the header pipe then muffler has a flame wave inside and doing a smoky burnout?
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Old 10-24-2013, 10:20 AM   #44
Sting32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motobene View Post
A warm and cold-weather shock position... I like it! Too bad the eye spacer aren't the same width to make it easier to flip over. I think most of the time heat is not an issue, as many shocks do OK at just under boiling temp of water. And how many of us motocross these things around the loop on a hot day and when the header pipe then muffler has a flame wave inside and doing a smoky burnout?
You do have to adjust dampening for riding temps, I was told.. The guy telling me this is VERY good rider, says he hits a certain rock 2 times, then adjusts how it felt, then he's ready for the day ...

luckily I ride at a significantly lower skill level, than the person that told me this, as I don't change the shock once I set it up at end of august, when the bike was un-crated, lol.
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Old 11-06-2013, 07:45 AM   #45
motobene OP
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Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
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A friend recently told me the Mitani japan web site in an advert for servicing the Reiger shock with this photo of the guts:



Nothing bizarre inside. The design is common to most modern motorcycle shocks.

Reiger differentiates itself with no use of castings or powder-metal parts. All the aluminum parts are machined on sophisticated machining centers, which is ideal for lower-volume production and manufacturing flexibility. Minimization of steel parts and parts sizes translates to one of the lightest shocks available.

The gas port is a tiny rubber, needle-fill-style thing in the larger diameter black anodized part. It can be a pain to work with. There is little or no room to fit a much simpler Schrader valve, but I will try when I do mine.

The seal head is held in with a wire clip (not threaded in) and gas pressure, which is more common these days. The thread-in shock body shuts off against the upper eye assembly having the compression adjuster. Oil being displaced by the rod during shock compression is forced to go through the compression adjuster on its way to the rubber bladder reservoir/accumulator chamber.

The accumulator is in the enlarged thread-over-shock-body cavity. The shock body seals the bladder to the enlarged cavity by compression of the rubber. This is the same accumulator design used by Showa on the 4RT. A photo, also from the Mitani Japan site, of the Showa accumulator body/cavity and rubber bladder:



Nitrogen gas resides in the aluminum cavity on the outside of the bladder, and the oil is on the inside of the bladder. The volume displaced by the rod during shock compression will bulge the bladder out a little against gas pressure. It is the nitrogen pressure acting on the area of the rod that provides the extension force on the rod of a properly charged shock.

The piston is machined aluminum. Higher volume production shocks often use a ferrous sintered powder metal piston, which allows for square-angular ports.

The valve stack (also known as the shim stack) is straightforward. They've got the shock shaft laying the wrong way, so I don't know how much I trust their assembly order, but I think the top row of shims is the compression stack and the bottom row is the rebound stack. Given there are fewer compression shims, I'd guess the compression shims are thicker than the rebound shims.

I'll be getting into my shock some time soon when I get a break from cows and construction, but this photo answers many questions. Thanks, Steve for sending it to me!

motobene screwed with this post 11-06-2013 at 10:23 AM
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