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Old 09-28-2013, 10:22 AM   #496
terryckdbf
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Thank you very much.

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Old 09-28-2013, 10:25 AM   #497
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Originally Posted by gbtw View Post


First run was after pcv was in, af ratio was prolly even worse than whats shown there.

Really like how it runs now, except for the small issue when starting the bike, It hangs on 9% trottle .
That is great of you to post this. The more info we get in the matter, the better. 2HP increase is good. What altitude was it done at. I see the millibars, but would you kindly add the altitude...... Thanks..
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Old 09-28-2013, 11:03 AM   #498
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That is great of you to post this. The more info we get in the matter, the better. 2HP increase is good. What altitude was it done at. I see the millibars, but would you kindly add the altitude...... Thanks..
It was in Poeldijk in the municipality Westland ( best known for the greenhouses and flowers ;) ) Wiki page says this is at 1 meter's above sea level, i highly doubt it, these fuckers made some huge dykes (levee's) around this area
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Old 09-28-2013, 11:43 AM   #499
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It was in Poeldijk in the municipality Westland ( best known for the greenhouses and flowers ;) ) Wiki page says this is at 1 meter's above sea level, i highly doubt it, these fuckers made some huge dykes (levee's) around this area
Ha ha... LOL..... Agreed.
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Old 09-28-2013, 07:55 PM   #500
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The above AFR plots look suspect. There's no way that the stock bike is that lean at 3000 RPM. And you'd really like to know the torque down to 2K RPM with some accuracy. It looks as if the stock bike is better there but I think that's an anomaly due to measurement technique.

The kind of thing I'd like to know is this. You're on the road, in 4th gear, 2500 RPM. You open the throttle 1/3 to 1/2, what is the rate of acceleration before and after? Or, what is the lowest RPM you can run in 6th gear that won't buck when you open the throttle. Or, at what low RPM does the torque start to fall off at. Each of these things can be measured pretty easily with a GS-911 or even observed by riding. A simple richening of lambda at the O2 sensor improves them all.
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Old 09-28-2013, 09:45 PM   #501
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The above AFR plots look suspect. There's no way that the stock bike is that lean at 3000 RPM. And you'd really like to know the torque down to 2K RPM with some accuracy. It looks as if the stock bike is better there but I think that's an anomaly due to measurement technique.

The kind of thing I'd like to know is this. You're on the road, in 4th gear, 2500 RPM. You open the throttle 1/3 to 1/2, what is the rate of acceleration before and after? Or, what is the lowest RPM you can run in 6th gear that won't buck when you open the throttle. Or, at what low RPM does the torque start to fall off at. Each of these things can be measured pretty easily with a GS-911 or even observed by riding. A simple richening of lambda at the O2 sensor improves them all.
Roger.
As we have been discussing this for a good long while now, I simply cant help seeing some bias here. I mentioned that the stock bike had an upward of 18 afr as we spend some time driving on the dyno. You mentioned back then that was impossible. I saw it..... Here we are again, and you say it is an error. I say it is there, weather you like it or not ( not trying to pick on you....I am really not) but I trust the dyno, and the results it yields. You seem to put all your eggs in the gs-911 basket, but I will trust the dyno any day over the gs-911. I will admit to that you know more in depth, and the inner functions of the BMSK, than me.... hands down, but I think it is wrong to discredit dyno results that has been so clearly illustrated.
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Old 09-28-2013, 11:48 PM   #502
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In this case i have to agree with mr Erling, Dyno guy i went too has been doing this stuff for 20 years. His DynoStar dyno has some of the lowest HP and Torque figures in the area making i a lot closer to reality than some of the big name guys over here. (Friend of mine got about 15 bph more on one of his compititors dyno's... Making 135 bhp on the wheel out of a nearly stock CB1000R )
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Old 09-29-2013, 03:57 AM   #503
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Gentlemen,
I'm not singling out the dyno operators, who I have no reason to mistrust. All I'm commenting on is the AFR test method. The tailpipe AFR probes can't do a good job at the start of an short inertial dyno burst. The exhaust flow is low and they are too near fresh air. The engines would likely stall if the AFRs were that high.

The better test method is an upstream probe such as an innovate (or other) LM-1, LC-1 or LC-2. (I'm not basing any of these AFR comments on GS-911 data.)

Think of It this way: you're running down the road at 2000 rpm in 4th gear. Your stock bike would be running a Closed Loop AFR of 14.7:1. At that point you crank the throttle to WOT. The BMSK goes Open Loop instantly and changes fueling (much faster than a tailpipe probe can respond). It picks its new fueling point based on TPS of 100% and RPM 2000. I would estimate that point is 12.8-13.2:1, and it adds an acceleration enrichment. I have measured this on F800S, R1200GS, R1150, and R1100. They all instantly go to an AFR between 12:1 and 12.8:1 approximately.

This is why I say that those high AFR numbers are in error.

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Old 09-29-2013, 05:18 AM   #504
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
That is great of you to post this. The more info we get in the matter, the better. 2HP increase is good. What altitude was it done at. I see the millibars, but would you kindly add the altitude...... Thanks..
I know this looks impressive.
IMO 2hp seems like sfa difference really, yes it's in a positive direction, but-

Would the same dyno and bike re-produce the same benefits in the positive direction if you keep the same programmed PC-V map and then-
changed it's elevation?
humidity?
fuel?
temprature?

Hmmmm.... I'm thinking that losing 8kg's off my fat arse might just be an even bigger improvement than a 2hp gain at a controlled altitude, humidity and enviroment.

I'd also take a decent suspension package over 2hp gain any day.

The dyno graph posted doesn't really show what happens under 3250rpm's very well either and if any thing it trends into negative territory. It's under these RPM's what really counts in rideability for an ADV bike. Or am I missing something?

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Quirky screwed with this post 09-29-2013 at 05:28 AM
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Old 09-29-2013, 05:23 AM   #505
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Gentlemen,
I'm not singling out the dyno operators, who I have no reason to mistrust. All I'm commenting on is the AFR test method. The tailpipe AFR probes can't do a good job at the start of an short inertial dyno burst. The exhaust flow is low and they are too near fresh air. The engines would likely stall if the AFRs were that high.

The better test method is an upstream probe such as an innovate (or other) LM-1, LC-1 or LC-2. (I'm not basing any of these AFR comments on GS-911 data.)

Think of It this way: you're running down the road at 2000 rpm in 4th gear. Your stock bike would be running a Closed Loop AFR of 14.7:1. At that point you crank the throttle to WOT. The BMSK goes Open Loop instantly and changes fueling (much faster than a tailpipe probe can respond). It picks its new fueling point based on TPS of 100% and RPM 2000. I would estimate that point is 12.8-13.2:1, and it adds an acceleration enrichment. I have measured this on F800S, R1200GS, R1150, and R1100. They all instantly go to an AFR between 12:1 and 12.8:1 approximately.

This is why I say that those high AFR numbers are in error.

RB
I think I will call this a difference of opinion then..... . The 8gs does exactly have issues with a terrible throttle response from idle through a few K rpms. What I am seeing, I conclude is consistent with a roll of from a very high AFR, to a lower AFR. I will say this Roger...... Reading back through this thread, I think it is fantastic that we have all been able to express our different opinions, and do so in a civil matter, with all of us behaving like adults, and no one getting upset. I think this thread represent the best of ADVR culture, in a great collective way. As we have different opinions, none are rejected, and bashed, and for the great contribution, Roger, I commend you. You could have bailed long time ago, but are still offering your opinion. All too many times do you see a thread going to hell, because of those opinions, and peoples egos, as their bikes are being picked on. I would like to thank all who have been contributing to this thread, and has done so in a civil matter......
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Old 09-29-2013, 05:27 AM   #506
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Originally Posted by Quirky View Post
I know this looks impressive.
IMO 2hp seems like sfa difference really, yes it's in a positive direction, but-

Would the same dyno and bike re-produce the same benefits in the positive direction if you keep the same programmed PC-V map and then-
changed it's elevation?
humidity?
fuel?
temprature?

Hmmmm.... I'm thinking that losing 8kg's off my fat arse might just be an even bigger improvement than a 2hp gain at a controlled altitude, humidity and enviroment.

I'd also take a decent suspension package over 2hp gain any day.

Noted, and yes. I would like to think that the results would reverse them self if he reversed the install. But mind you, we are not just doing this for the power. I only gained about 5 HP on mine with all the extra junk, but in my case it was to make a better handling bike, as mine was impossible off idle. So bike control was the ticket for me, and a smoother response through out the band. The fact that it yielded a few more HP.... I will take it too.....
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Old 09-29-2013, 05:29 AM   #507
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Likewise. I feel very committed to studying and experimenting on BMW motorcycles. This is very rewarding. You've tried several experiments on behalf of everyone reading this thread and have been a gentleman about it.

What I really would like to see is a closed loop PCV like the PC III USB. When Dynojet came out with the PC III w/Wideband for the 1100 and 1150, Harley riders were up in arms, demanding one but didn't get it.
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Old 09-29-2013, 07:00 AM   #508
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Originally Posted by Quirky View Post
I know this looks impressive.
IMO 2hp seems like sfa difference really, yes it's in a positive direction, but-

Would the same dyno and bike re-produce the same benefits in the positive direction if you keep the same programmed PC-V map and then-
changed it's elevation?
humidity?
fuel?
temprature?

Hmmmm.... I'm thinking that losing 8kg's off my fat arse might just be an even bigger improvement than a 2hp gain at a controlled altitude, humidity and enviroment.

I'd also take a decent suspension package over 2hp gain any day.

The dyno graph posted doesn't really show what happens under 3250rpm's very well either and if any thing it trends into negative territory. It's under these RPM's what really counts in rideability for an ADV bike. Or am I missing something?

I did mine because the bike kept stalling in slow speed hardly any throttle turns (like on roundabouts) Was super infuriating, and was finaly done with it after it happened 5 times in one 2 hour ride with some friends!

I already had Bas at hyperpro fix the suspension ;)
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Old 09-29-2013, 07:08 AM   #509
roger 04 rt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quirky View Post
I know this looks impressive.
IMO 2hp seems like sfa difference really, yes it's in a positive direction, but-

Would the same dyno and bike re-produce the same benefits in the positive direction if you keep the same programmed PC-V map and then-
changed it's elevation?
humidity?
fuel?
temprature?

Hmmmm.... I'm thinking that losing 8kg's off my fat arse might just be an even bigger improvement than a 2hp gain at a controlled altitude, humidity and enviroment.

I'd also take a decent suspension package over 2hp gain any day.

The dyno graph posted doesn't really show what happens under 3250rpm's very well either and if any thing it trends into negative territory. It's under these RPM's what really counts in rideability for an ADV bike. Or am I missing something?

The dyno operator has the ability in input temperature, elevation (?) and humidity. However, many, if not most, dyno pulls only last a few seconds and the machine only gets rolling at above 2000-2500 rpms.

A more interesting test would be to put the bike in each gear at several rpms between 2000-4000 against a load controlled dyno, turn the throttle a fixed amount and see what the rate of acceleration was. This is more representative of what we want to know as riders, IMO. However, this is the type of costly testing that only a company can usually afford.
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Old 09-29-2013, 10:25 AM   #510
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The dyno operator has the ability in input temperature, elevation (?) and humidity. However, many, if not most, dyno pulls only last a few seconds and the machine only gets rolling at above 2000-2500 rpms.

A more interesting test would be to put the bike in each gear at several rpms between 2000-4000 against a load controlled dyno, turn the throttle a fixed amount and see what the rate of acceleration was. This is more representative of what we want to know as riders, IMO. However, this is the type of costly testing that only a company can usually afford.
Roger,

While I commend your work, you are either unaware, or choose to ignore how a skilled dyno operator produces a quality dyno tune. For starters, they don't simply stuff a sniffer up the tail pipe. If proper bungs aren't already on the headers, in the proper location, then Rivnuts are installed where they belong, to provide sample ports for wide band sensors. To produce the fuel/spark maps, the engine is run through as many throttle position, rpm, MAP as possible, under varying loads, so the correct adjustments can be made to the fuel/spark tables. The final pull that you see printed out, is done at WOT, in a single gear, in a few seconds, as you say. What you don't see are the hours of data collection done to reach that point.

Is a generic, across the board enrichening device helpful to correct an engine tuned on the lean side....absolutely! However, it cannot possibly match the performance of a QUALITY dyno tune. With it, you can run the engine rich where either low speed manners, or under heavy load/high throttle settings for power. But keep it near Stoich at steady state cruise, and preserve fuel economy, as well as keep emissions low.

Devices like the Xied are great bang for the buck, but to say they outperform a proper dyno tune, coupled with a remap of the fuel tables, is wishful thinking, IMO.

Jeff
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