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Old 09-26-2013, 07:19 PM   #1456
Vulfy OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Motogymkhanaman View Post
Throttle and Brakes - an explanation.

The Japanese make a great thing about 'Driving Force' being the key to negotiating a course in a very fast time. They measure this driving force in units which are determined by taking the number of braking units from the number of throttle units. They imagine that the throttle is calibrated into ten units with zero being closed and ten being fully open. Same with the brakes, zero off and ten full-on.

During the slow part of the rotation turn they want to see two units of driving force applied to the rear wheel. These two units could be achieved by having two units of throttle and none of brake, but that would be very difficult to achieve as the ability to steer at full-lock requires the brakes to be on so that when they are released the bike will pick up.

Much better to achieve these two units by having a lot of throttle units and a lot of brake units and so long as the end result remains at two units of driving force all will be well.

Top riders like to do rotations with around 8 units of throttle force opposed by 6 units of braking force. When they want to pick the bike up it only requires that the brakes are released and the bike surges forward due to the practically wide open throttle. During the pick-up phase the top riders wind the throttle on just a couple more units so the throttle is nearly against the stop.

All this takes lots and lots of practice so the Japanese suggest that people start with around 4 units of throttle and two units of brake and slowly increase the amount as they become more skilled at the use of the technique.
Very cool!! Now if only those two units of braking wouldn't overheat the fluids and crack the rotors, and the those four units of throttle wouldn't scare the bejesus out of me...

Part of the fun and why I'm in love with this sport.

I do like this system though, makes it very easy to evaluate my mistakes and approach...

If only someone having access to Japanese knowledge of Gymkhana would compile it into some kind of a book, or a manual in English....
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Old 09-26-2013, 08:45 PM   #1457
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If only someone having access to Japanese knowledge of Gymkhana would compile it into some kind of a book, or a manual in English....
That's what I'm saying! I would go to a gymkhana seminar out here in a heartbeat as well.

Also, great post above about the units of force for braking and throttle. Read it three times. Gotta hand it to the Japanese, they always know how to turn something into an art.
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Old 09-30-2013, 02:10 AM   #1458
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Just to show that Moto Gymkhana is perfectly at home on a kart track or racing circuit, here is one of the runs from the recent competition in Poland.

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Old 09-30-2013, 12:47 PM   #1459
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A Moto Gymkhana seminar in Southern California? Now there's an idea.

Perhaps a combination of riding techniques, course design and layout and bike preparation might be nice.

I'll give it some serious thought.
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:07 AM   #1460
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motogymkhanaman View Post
A Moto Gymkhana seminar in Southern California? Now there's an idea.

Perhaps a combination of riding techniques, course design and layout and bike preparation might be nice.

I'll give it some serious thought.
Wow, this sounds like fun.
Would be nice to see this sport take hold here in SoCal, our weather is usually nice and we have an extremely large riding population.
Would this be open to all riders and any style of bike??????????????
THUMPER>>>>>>>>>>>>
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Old 10-01-2013, 12:15 PM   #1461
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Originally Posted by GETTHUMPER2 View Post


Wow, this sounds like fun.
Would be nice to see this sport take hold here in SoCal, our weather is usually nice and we have an extremely large riding population.
Would this be open to all riders and any style of bike??????????????
THUMPER>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's as open as you make it... Just get some cones and find a parking lot.

You don't need anything more than that to go play.
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Old 10-01-2013, 07:55 PM   #1462
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I would be there instantly

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motogymkhanaman View Post
A Moto Gymkhana seminar in Southern California? Now there's an idea.

Perhaps a combination of riding techniques, course design and layout and bike preparation might be nice.

I'll give it some serious thought.
So would two other guys I ride with. I'm sure just posting an event in this forum would have more than enough guys show up to make an event. In the meantime, still searching for a space.

Also, a question.

I just did a "Lee Parks Total Control" nine hour cornering class yesterday. All about learning to corner safer and faster. They were all about hanging off the bike, sticking your knee out during turns etc. The off road courses I've done teach you to stick your foot out sometimes while cornering sitting down.

Why in gymkhana does everyone keep their knees/legs in (with supermoto boots you could put your foot down safely)?

Are they just moving too fast to even be able to have the time to hang off the bike? I.e, the transition time between turns is too short? Not going fast enough?

Just curious.
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Old 10-02-2013, 02:31 AM   #1463
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Hi Stoke, Yes there are quite a few differences between the Moto Gymkhana riding style and the style that Lee promotes, but there is no difference in the reasons why we do what we do.

You are right in saying that we simply don't have enough time to transition our lower body from side to side so we have to make do with just transitioning the upper body instead.

You will remember from Lee's course that he talked a lot about the 6 keys to cornering? Well it's exactly the same six keys in Moto Gymkhana so if you have learned all of them then you will be way ahead of the rest when it comes to riding!

There is a group operating out of LA http://m-gymkhana.com/ and I'm sure they would love to have a chat with you about doing something down in San Diego so why not give them a call?

Thumper - any bike will do it from a scooter to a full dress cruiser as it's the rider that is being challenged in this sport, not the bike.
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Old 10-02-2013, 08:15 AM   #1464
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Originally Posted by stoke View Post
So would two other guys I ride with. I'm sure just posting an event in this forum would have more than enough guys show up to make an event. In the meantime, still searching for a space.

Also, a question.

I just did a "Lee Parks Total Control" nine hour cornering class yesterday. All about learning to corner safer and faster. They were all about hanging off the bike, sticking your knee out during turns etc. The off road courses I've done teach you to stick your foot out sometimes while cornering sitting down.

Why in gymkhana does everyone keep their knees/legs in (with supermoto boots you could put your foot down safely)?

Are they just moving too fast to even be able to have the time to hang off the bike? I.e, the transition time between turns is too short? Not going fast enough?

Just curious.
There is no need in removing feet from pegs, unless stopping.

If the bike is being pushed down instead of the rider leaning, speed is high enough to do it right, ie, hanging off.

it's a gymkhana course, not a race track. Watch the fast guys on YouTube.
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:54 AM   #1465
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Is anybody doing gymkhana in the Baltimore/DC area?
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Old 10-08-2013, 06:46 AM   #1466
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Question, when to lean in or lean out

My question is, at what speed, angle or point near the pylon do you determine when to lean the bike under you dirtrack style or lean with the bike, road race/street style??
Is it one of thoes Zen moments where you just "feel" when the moments right..

I'm just confuserated........
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Old 10-08-2013, 09:20 AM   #1467
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Originally Posted by mitch96 View Post
My question is, at what speed, angle or point near the pylon do you determine when to lean the bike under you dirtrack style or lean with the bike, road race/street style??
Is it one of thoes Zen moments where you just "feel" when the moments right..

I'm just confuserated........
This us just my experience:

Good entry speed, good decreasing radius turn= lean with it, maybe a little less than the bike

Slower than optimal speed entry= push the bike down and get into the throttle sooner on exit.

I try really hard to make each turn a decreasing radius, with heavy acceleration directly after the rear axle meets the cone.

Start wide, end TIGHT, shoot out to next cone.

See?
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Old 10-08-2013, 11:01 AM   #1468
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Leaning out? Leaning in? Leaning with? Choices, choices, choices!

Sadly the answer is that there is no answer as it all depends on the rate of change in various values of bank angle, steering angle and speed. A lot also depends on the individual rider's experience and familiarity with the handling traits of the bike hence the fact that there is no hard and fast rule.

It seems that riders eventually get a 'feel' for what suits them the best and the GP8 course is the only way of quickly finding this out. In about ten minutes of riding on the GP8 you can experiment with all sorts of combinations of body position and eventually you will find one that gives the best feeling of control as well as the fastest time.

Watching the Top Riders over in Japan you can see all sorts of different body positions in use even though their times might be very similar.

One thing that Mr Kimura does say is that if you are going to move something, be it handlebars or your upper body, move it FAST!
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Old 10-08-2013, 07:18 PM   #1469
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I know what helped me tremendously with getting a proper lean and full lock, is the Siso's GP but only tighter.

Get 4 cones, half tennis balls, empty coke cans, whatever.

Set each one 10 feet from the next.

Start doing just the slalom/weave through them.

Once comfortable with that, do a 180 at each end of the slalom, and continue doing slalom like this, back and forth.

After you get comfortable with that, look up a diagram for Siso's GP and do that.



At first, this exercise might look EXTREMELY challenging and you might think that there is no way you can do it and that the cones are way too close to each other.

Do not spread them further, keep them at 10 feet and challenge yourself. After a few hours of running this exercise you will get the feel for lean angle and full lock. You have to throw your bike side to side quite a bit, in order to negotiate this exercises and that helps a lot with the feel and getting comfortable with it moving under you.

I know that at optimal speed and lean angle, my front "locks" in place and I'm instead of fighting the bars, I'm actually pushing into them to turn even further, but those stops will keep the bars locked at maximum angle, producing that "locked" feeling.

Its very hard to describe the feeling you get from the bike, but when you feel it at least once, you'll know exactly what I"m talking about. It feels like the bike snaps in half at the bars and locks in place, while rapidly turning around its rear wheel.

And the body position on the bike, is dictated by speed. I know I want to achieve that full lock as fast as I can around the turn, so body position sorts itself out, as I position myself however I need to, in order TO GET to the full lock, BASED on the speed I'm going around the cone. It sort of is automatic. I am concerned more about that full lock, and everything else is done to achieve that one goal.
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Old 10-09-2013, 01:28 AM   #1470
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I figured the same, the quicker to full lock, the quicker the transition through brake, turn, gas, the better.
T'is not an easy thing to do, controlling the bike when it's on the stops is weird, nay, completely alien. No handle bar input. Just throttle, brake & balance.
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