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Old 10-18-2013, 03:08 PM   #9721
atlas cached
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmbeedee View Post
Try as I might, I could not get my compass to misbehave today. Track Up mode, and it stood perfectly still anytime I stopped. The map never once swung around.

I think, as Drtbyk suggested, yours must be defective. Or maybe there's something about your vehicle causing it.
What vehicle and mount were you using? What power source?

My Montana's (I have owned four of them) have all exhibited the spinning map at each stop from the time I purchased my first unit to this very day.

Can all four of my Montana's be defective?

I wish to try and determine why you do not experience this issue :)
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:19 PM   #9722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmbeedee View Post
Try as I might, I could not get my compass to misbehave today. Track Up mode, and it stood perfectly still anytime I stopped. The map never once swung around.

I think, as Drtbyk suggested, yours must be defective. Or maybe there's something about your vehicle causing it...
I'm completely confident that my unit is no different than any others and that sending it to Garmin would be a *complete* waste of time. Frankly, I think people suggesting this don't really believe there is a problem with mine.

Mebbe you missed what I said in my posts... It's when it relies on GPS (not compass) that it swings off to some random direction and will sometimes change. Plenty of people complain about this whether in a cage or on a moto. This is much worse than other GPS's I have used. Frustratingly so.

When the compass is active (obviously rugged mount) it just points with a significant error, most often between 30 and 60 degrees and sometimes even more than 90. It is also not all that repeatable. I.e. I can travel south and come to a stop and it points off by 45. A mile further down the road I stop, still pointed south (major roads here in town are on a very cardinal directions grid) and its off by 60 this time. But it doesn't change like it often does when the compass is disabled, it just has a very significant error that makes it confusing albeit less error than when the compass is off. It does this in any vehicle I've used it in and I rent a lot of different cars when I travel.

So like I say, I gave up on using the compass on a vehicle, which is sort of ok. All the other GPS's I've used didn't have magnetic sensors that were intended to work in any other position than horizontal. The only reason I pursued the compass is because unlike all those other GPS's, it doesn't seem to want to keep pointing properly (properly = track direction or heading, which are pretty much the same in a wheeled vehicle) when we stop. This is a very common complaint and not unique to me. My bet is that it is due to the schlock firmware but it could also be the patch antenna - GPS's with quadrifiler helixes have always treated me a little better. Floptana maybe very sensitive to multipath, especially when not horizontal, I dunno.

If I creep forward slowly without using the compass it will point correctly so that is better for me than using the compass where it will pretty much never point properly. As long as I don't bump the guy in front of me or creep to far into the intersection
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Old 10-18-2013, 04:25 PM   #9723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atlas cached View Post
What vehicle and mount were you using? What power source?

My Montana's (I have owned four of them) have all exhibited the spinning map at each stop from the time I purchased my first unit to this very day.

Can all four of my Montana's be defective?

I wish to try and determine why you do not experience this issue :)
I was using the Rugged Mount powered by the bike; Compass on Auto; map on Track Up which I normally don't use but wanted to try today just to see if the map would flip around. It didn't.

Have you tried turning off the Compass as I described the other day? Mine was fluctuating until I turned it off in Setup\Heading\Compass; played around a bit with it off, then re-enabled it and it's been rock-steady since.
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"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:48 PM   #9724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRTBYK View Post
Haven't been able to keep up with this so hope you don't mind me chiming in, but, have you actually lost track log (Current Track) data? Or, is the Current Track not completely showing?

Fortunately no, it does not actually lose any of the current track data...

The problem is that the current track either does not show at all or is
severely truncated, showing maybe 1/8 of a mile or less of a trail behind us.
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Old 10-18-2013, 06:57 PM   #9725
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventure Addict View Post
Fortunately no, it does not actually lose any of the current track data...

The problem is that the current track either does not show at all or is
severely truncated, showing maybe 1/8 of a mile or less of a trail behind us.

Yes, I've had that experience as well. Very inconvenient when I was wandering around a city in Mexico and counting on following my track back out.

....................shu
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:27 PM   #9726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventure Addict View Post
So based on that we can conclude that the memory usage shown
in the reset menu is indeed for the current track only and is reset when the GPS auto-archives the current track.
When the Montana Auto Archives the track data, it does not reset the track data automatically. It just saves the chunk, but it's up to you to clear it.

At least that's my understanding of that process.
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"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.
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Old 10-18-2013, 07:36 PM   #9727
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On the 76 model there's a map setting called "Track Points". Whatever number you set that to is the maximum number of points of your active track that show up on the map screen. If you don't set it to the maximum value of 10,000, it will chop the tail off your track on the screen, but it still records the maximum amount into memory. I don't have a Montana, but maybe it has a similar setting?
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Old 10-18-2013, 10:47 PM   #9728
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmbeedee View Post
When the Montana Auto Archives the track data, it does not reset the track data automatically. It just saves the chunk, but it's up to you to clear it.

At least that's my understanding of that process.

I confirmed on my Montana that it does indeed clear it. The usage goes to
0% and all of the track is now gone... none of it shows on the display no
matter what you do (short of bringing it back out of the archive).

This is with the "daily" auto archive... the archive when full may behave
differently, I don't know I have not tried that.
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Old 10-19-2013, 04:34 AM   #9729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ View Post
I'm completely confident that my unit is no different than any others and that sending it to Garmin would be a *complete* waste of time. Frankly, I think people suggesting this don't really believe there is a problem with mine.

Mebbe you missed what I said in my posts... It's when it relies on GPS (not compass) that it swings off to some random direction and will sometimes change. Plenty of people complain about this whether in a cage or on a moto. This is much worse than other GPS's I have used. Frustratingly so.

When the compass is active (obviously rugged mount) it just points with a significant error, most often between 30 and 60 degrees and sometimes even more than 90. It is also not all that repeatable. I.e. I can travel south and come to a stop and it points off by 45. A mile further down the road I stop, still pointed south (major roads here in town are on a very cardinal directions grid) and its off by 60 this time. But it doesn't change like it often does when the compass is disabled, it just has a very significant error that makes it confusing albeit less error than when the compass is off. It does this in any vehicle I've used it in and I rent a lot of different cars when I travel.

So like I say, I gave up on using the compass on a vehicle, which is sort of ok. All the other GPS's I've used didn't have magnetic sensors that were intended to work in any other position than horizontal. The only reason I pursued the compass is because unlike all those other GPS's, it doesn't seem to want to keep pointing properly (properly = track direction or heading, which are pretty much the same in a wheeled vehicle) when we stop. This is a very common complaint and not unique to me. My bet is that it is due to the schlock firmware but it could also be the patch antenna - GPS's with quadrifiler helixes have always treated me a little better. Floptana maybe very sensitive to multipath, especially when not horizontal, I dunno.

If I creep forward slowly without using the compass it will point correctly so that is better for me than using the compass where it will pretty much never point properly. As long as I don't bump the guy in front of me or creep to far into the intersection
Does the compass work any better when you are on foot?
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Old 10-19-2013, 05:43 AM   #9730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventure Addict View Post
I confirmed on my Montana that it does indeed clear it. The usage goes to
0% and all of the track is now gone... none of it shows on the display no
matter what you do (short of bringing it back out of the archive).

This is with the "daily" auto archive... the archive when full may behave
differently, I don't know I have not tried that.
You're right. Auto Archive daily does behave that way. I guess I was assuming the track was still there since the "Track Distance" still had the distance marked. I use Track Distance as a second trip odometer.
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Want to know more about the Garmin Montana? See the Wisdom and FAQ Thread.
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"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:13 AM   #9731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emoto View Post
Does the compass work any better when you are on foot?
To avoid confusion regarding semantics:

Relying on "compass" (compass mode "auto") utilizes the magnetic sensor to give heading when stopped or moving very slowly.

Relying on "GPS" (compass mode "off") utilizes the GNSS receiver to determine track direction at all times including when stopped or moving slowly.

In a wheeled vehicle, generally speaking the difference between heading and track direction are negligible and more or less mean the same thing unless we are moving backwards. We desire heading in order to correlate our out-the-windshield perspective with the map.

When not in a wheeled vehicle heading and track direction may be very different and both are relevant.


So...

The compass works fine when handheld. I generally use it more or less horizontally when handheld but I think it works ok when vertical too. I don't use it that way so I don't have a lot of use time to draw from.

The compass does not work well when mounted (away from metal) vertically in a vehicle; I haven't tried horizontally since it's not useful. Any wheeled vehicle I've tried. It may be due to the influence of the metal in the vehicle but my experience with raw data from 3-axis magnetic sensors is that metals usually need to be pretty close to cause much error and you can compensate for them if you massage the data properly and do a proper calibration; i.e. the errors from metal structures like a car/4x4 are small and very repeatable. High current electrical gives me more grief but even that can be compensated for and is not applicable to this discussion. Regardless, the floptana compass errors in a vehicle are much greater and way less repeatable than the 3-axis sensors I've setup in numerous types vehicles.

On the other hand, for car navigation traditionally we depend on GPS track direction to orient the map. We shouldn't need the compass at all. Mapping GPS's have simple algorithms that generally "lock" onto the prior track direction when they drop to low groundspeeds maintaining that track direction and ignoring the GNSS noise vector until the groundpeed increases. Floptana sucks at this. It is far too sensitive to the GNSS noise vector when we are stopped and grabs onto it as present track direction. It is by far the worst GPS I've ever used in this regard and it's a frequent complaint on this forum and others. It could be aggravated by the horrible orientation of the patch antenna when the unit is mounted vertically, the lack of a decent groundplane, susceptibility to multi-path, etc. but even if these are conditions that increase and change the nature of the GNNS noise vector the schlock firmware regarding this (and plenty of other things) is crap since it isn't able to filter this noise and IMO is high up on the list of bugs that should be addressed.... Riiiiiiiight...
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:26 AM   #9732
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adventure Addict View Post
I confirmed on my Montana that it does indeed clear it. The usage goes to
0% and all of the track is now gone... none of it shows on the display no
matter what you do (short of bringing it back out of the archive).

This is with the "daily" auto archive... the archive when full may behave
differently, I don't know I have not tried that.
I realize now why I thought the track remained in the Track Log even after it was Auto Archived Daily. I've been using another gps a lot more than the Montana recently, and that's how this other one behaves.

This other gps fits on the Montana mount, so I get confused sometimes.


Sent using strings and tin cans and Tapatalk.
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Want to know more about the Garmin Montana? See the Wisdom and FAQ Thread.
Want to know more about the Garmin VIRB? See here.
"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:34 AM   #9733
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveAZ View Post
To avoid confusion regarding semantics:

Relying on "compass" (compass mode "auto") utilizes the magnetic sensor to give heading when stopped or moving very slowly.

Relying on "GPS" (compass mode "off") utilizes the GNSS receiver to determine track direction at all times including when stopped or moving slowly.

In a wheeled vehicle, generally speaking the difference between heading and track direction are negligible and more or less mean the same thing unless we are moving backwards. We desire heading in order to correlate our out-the-windshield perspective with the map.

When not in a wheeled vehicle heading and track direction may be very different and both are relevant.


So...

The compass works fine when handheld. The compass does not work well when mounted (away from metal) vertically in a vehicle; I haven't tried horizontally since it's not useful. Any wheeled vehicle I've tried.
Substitute 'My Montana' for 'The Montana'. I can send you video of mine working just fine vertically on the bike.


Sent using strings and tin cans and Tapatalk.
__________________
Want to know more about the Garmin Montana? See the Wisdom and FAQ Thread.
Want to know more about the Garmin VIRB? See here.
"The motorcycle, being poorly designed for both flight and marine operation, sustained significant external and internal damage," police noted.
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:42 AM   #9734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmbeedee View Post
I realize now why I thought the track remained in the Track Log even after it was Auto Archived Daily. I've been using another gps a lot more than the Montana recently, and that's how this other one behaves.

This other gps fits on the Montana mount, so I get confused sometimes.


Sent using strings and tin cans and Tapatalk.
I have yet to get my hands on one of them 'other' Montana's :) How are you liking it?
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Old 10-19-2013, 08:49 AM   #9735
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmbeedee View Post
I was using the Rugged Mount powered by the bike; Compass on Auto; map on Track Up which I normally don't use but wanted to try today just to see if the map would flip around. It didn't.

Have you tried turning off the Compass as I described the other day? Mine was fluctuating until I turned it off in Setup\Heading\Compass; played around a bit with it off, then re-enabled it and it's been rock-steady since.
Ah, thank you. I am using the Montana in an automotive mount, which automatically disables the compass, when I experience the spinning map at stops.
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