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Old 11-01-2013, 07:45 PM   #571
roger 04 rt
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Very interesting thread and lots of insight and information. I've got a couple thoughts and will drop them inline with your narrative.

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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
So after have been riding a lot more with the PC-5/AT combo, I feel that I am now more in tune with the practical app of the system, yet don't feel that I know more of the inner working. That is in part due to the fact that DJ is unwilling to provide good info, or they simply choose not to share it. Either way, I am basing this of my experience, regarding what I see, and the bike behaves, and with less scientific data to back it up, as I do not own a GS-911. I know.. I know... I really should. Yeppers, there are many things I should do, or have.... Like the next CF rear rack for the OSSO tank, but that is another chapter to be written. That said, I will admit to NOT being 100% happy, and satisfied with the PC-5/AT combo. First, as it has been discussed in this thread, the PC-5/AT ( hence forth referred to as the DJ combo) I can't help thinking the BMSK, and the DJ are some how wrestling amongst them self.... should I refer them to the DEM, and GOP......

DJ makes an engine which they seem to use in dozens of different products. As a result, a lot gets left to the user.

While it sure seems they are wrestling, remember that when you disconnect the O2 sensor from, as the PCV requires, you remove the BMSK's most important, most accurate sensor. The BMSK knows O2 is missing and goes into a much more varies fueling pattern.

A simple explanation would be that for any TPS/RPM combination there are two possible fueling values which appear to be about 10% different. Without the O2 BMSK tries to be 5% richer than 14.7 and then 5% leaner in an attempt to keep the cat working. The DJ know nothing of that and will get confused, so to speak.


First.......
You see, at just about every acceleration from stop the mpg counter is in the low teens, and as I shift through 3'rd, in the 30's, and then to stabilize after reaching cruise. This is something that have been noted since the install, and is predominantly higher inside the first 10 miles. It matters not what I do with the DJ, as this is a computed function of the BMSK, and whatever maps I load, it has no effect. That was not the case prior to DJ install. It leads me to think that the BMSK is not liking its environment during acceleration much, and for that reason splashes a lot more fuel into the injectors. Only thing that can instigate this, is the removal of the stock O2 sensor, as all the other DJ stuff is down stream, and with regard to that, the BMSK is clueless.

The low mileage in low gears is due to acceleration enrichment and lower BSFC (lbs. of fuel per horsepower). The lack of a connected O2 sensor could compound this.

Second......
I have started to see a split in indicated mpg, and actual calculated mpg. The split started around 600 miles after install, and was miniscule at the get go, but after 500-600'ish miles since install, saw a few mpg diff.... and now it has stabilized to a computed mpg of 60....... and a calculated mpg of 53.... a difference of 7 mpg. That number is fairly accurate, and predictable. This bothers me, as with our idiots in the white house, congress, and senate we cannot be united, and efficiant by NOT working together. I think Lincoln once said: " a house divided, cannot stand" and I am a firm believer of that same principle applies here. With the BMSK, and DJ constantly arguing, the results will never be optimal, but always a compromise. Sorta funny, in a way, but reality I think.

Makes sense, any fuel added by the DJ is unknown by the BMSK's trip computer.

Third.....
There are several functions that DJ omitted from this APP. Water temp input, Timing control, to name a few, and that shows a lag of support, and sloppy enter into service on the behalf of DJ. I offer an example of the opposite. I am a beta tester for Rekluse Clutch, in their APP for the BMW F800GS EXP product, and working with them.....seeing their great interest in bringing the best, safest, and most durable product in to service, prior to launch, have been, and is very ensuring. Unfortunately it had brought some delays along, but as not to rush anything, and only bring a half full plate to the table, Rekluse have stuck it out, and are now very close with a full plate of goodies. DJ...... Not so much. In stead of working out the short comings of the 8GS APP, nothing has been done. In fact denial of such, is on the menu, when I have contacted them in such regard.

This seems to be par for the course with DJ products. After DJ built the PC III w/Wideband for the Oilheads, a good BMW specific product, they abandoned it and never updated the software.

Conclusion......
All the above sounds a bit harsh...... I know, but it is base on my first hand experience with the DJ system, for a good long while now. That said...... I think it still is the best solution for a better fueled 8GS with exhaust mods done. I would be a bit careful with the DJ install if you are still using the stock header with the CAT, as my pipe exit has a little more soot on the inside, and I would imagine that soot will accumulate inside the CAT with greater frequency. I think as the SAS have been discussed here as well, part of the confusion regarding weather it should be on, or off, adds to the ....ehhhhhh.... confusion... as by DJ own writing they specify it should be disconnected, yet they offer nothing.... No instructions whatsoever in the matter, leading me to think they did NOT do this when they tested the system on their test mule. Only reason I left my SAS engaged, is that the bike ran like crap with it disengaged.... Confusing..... yes, you bet, but I will NOT argue with success, and the expense of theory.

Two more F800GS riders are getting test devices. If you want to try one when they are finished, please PM me. You would then have closed loop BMSK operation. And it might work even on your highly modified bike.

Chapter two......
I revised my fueling tables, in trying to experiment a little with the workings, and reverted back to a Full Zero map. ( literally all zero's)


I wanted to identify weather or not the added fuel right of idle had an impact on the off idle hop, and after now a few hundred miles, I am happy to say, that it does NOT. I have no off idle hop, and very well behaved fueling off idle, with the DJ not adding anything below 2% throttle. That leads me to say that the DJ has no effect on this, but it is a function of the BMSK shutting off the injectors at Throttle closing, and when re opened, the CAT momentarily offers a spike of pressure build up, until the flow control is mitigated...... This is my theory, but is substantiated with pm's, that I have gotten with fellow riders, installing a full system, but NOT a DJ install, as they have reported good off idle behavior.

Then trying to indulge upon the fuel efficiency, I changed the target AFR from 13.2 to 14 below 5000 rpm, and 80% throttle. The bike has no change in perceived power..... MPG split has yet to be determined.

Then finally, after a few hundred miles, this is the following fuel add/subtract table that the DJ offers.....


A much more well behaved table with only a few rouge additions along the way, which I suspect is due to the SAS messing up the Sniffer.

I will ride this a bit like this, and report back. But make no mistake..... When, and if a better alternative comes along, that works by either re flashing the BMSK, or working with it, I will jump on that in a heart beat.
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Old 11-01-2013, 08:35 PM   #572
ebrabaek OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Very interesting thread and lots of insight and information. I've got a couple thoughts and will drop them inline with your narrative.
Some good input Roger. Your input is always valued. I Think your right, as I have come to the same conclusions through my trials. I will pm you in the next day or two, with questions regarding your AF-XIED. I think the best way to proceed is call for dyno time.......
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ebrabaek screwed with this post 11-02-2013 at 06:36 AM
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Old 11-02-2013, 03:31 AM   #573
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
Some good input Roger. Your input is always valued. I Think your right, as I have come to the same conclusions through my trials. I will pm you in the next day or two, with questions regarding your FIXED. I think the best way to proceed is call for dyno time.......
There are a couple guys, including Mike at Beemer Boneyard, who are running the BMW-AF-XIED with modified exhausts. Their findings have been that they get best performance adding one click less fuel that stock exhausts (6 clicks increase instead of 7 or 8). The reason they speculate is that air reversion is already telling the BMSK that there isn't quite enough fuel so they don't need to add as much. Anyhow, you could try it and see what you think. You would get Closed Loop back--even with your very open exhaust it might work. The best part is it would take zero dyno time. RB
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Old 11-02-2013, 06:43 AM   #574
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
There are a couple guys, including Mike at Beemer Boneyard, who are running the BMW-AF-XIED with modified exhausts. Their findings have been that they get best performance adding one click less fuel that stock exhausts (6 clicks increase instead of 7 or 8). The reason they speculate is that air reversion is already telling the BMSK that there isn't quite enough fuel so they don't need to add as much. Anyhow, you could try it and see what you think. You would get Closed Loop back--even with your very open exhaust it might work. The best part is it would take zero dyno time. RB
Personally I would prefer to run closed all the time, as it sort of does not above 2%, but with precision gone. I would need to put it on a dyno, to verify its performance numbers, as part of my equation would be performance. I know you don't share that thought Roger, and that is ok, but in my opinion as with DJ, which claims there is no need with the PC-5/AT combo, i disagree with them on that as well.
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Old 11-02-2013, 07:41 AM   #575
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
Personally I would prefer to run closed all the time, as it sort of does not above 2%, but with precision gone. I would need to put it on a dyno, to verify its performance numbers, as part of my equation would be performance. I know you don't share that thought Roger, and that is ok, but in my opinion as with DJ, which claims there is no need with the PC-5/AT combo, i disagree with them on that as well.
Let me gently take you to task for calling the DJ Autotune closed loop at any rpm. It does monitor and adjust fueling but that's only about a third of what the BMSK can do in closed loop. Autotune is a simpler measure and store function. For example, the BMSK doesn't need to measure every cell before it can improve the whole map. It does get better with time though. The BMSK designers made the software smart enough so that even if you never ride in an area of the map long enough to have quality data, it can make a good estimate. The other thing because the BMSK is executing a Limp Home fueling pattern on your bike, the measurements that Autotune records keep changing. It's hard to know what it does with the 10% uncertainty.

Well if you do try the dyno again I would love to see numbers in steady state torque at 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000. By steady state I'm thinking hold that rpm and see what the torque is as the dyno adds load, up to full throttle for each of those rpms. Could do one at WOT, 7500 rpm or max.

From my tests with my GS-911 on-road dyno function (and experience, the increase is pretty apparent) you get a better measure of torque at low rpms than the dynos ever show.

roger 04 rt screwed with this post 11-02-2013 at 07:46 AM
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Old 11-02-2013, 09:37 AM   #576
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Originally Posted by roger 04 rt View Post
Let me gently take you to task for calling the DJ Autotune closed loop at any rpm. It does monitor and adjust fueling but that's only about a third of what the BMSK can do in closed loop. Autotune is a simpler measure and store function. For example, the BMSK doesn't need to measure every cell before it can improve the whole map. It does get better with time though. The BMSK designers made the software smart enough so that even if you never ride in an area of the map long enough to have quality data, it can make a good estimate. The other thing because the BMSK is executing a Limp Home fueling pattern on your bike, the measurements that Autotune records keep changing. It's hard to know what it does with the 10% uncertainty.

Well if you do try the dyno again I would love to see numbers in steady state torque at 2000, 2500, 3000, 3500, 4000. By steady state I'm thinking hold that rpm and see what the torque is as the dyno adds load, up to full throttle for each of those rpms. Could do one at WOT, 7500 rpm or max.

From my tests with my GS-911 on-road dyno function (and experience, the increase is pretty apparent) you get a better measure of torque at low rpms than the dynos ever show.
It might be that the BMSK is better at Closed looping. I won't argue that, but by definition as the DJ combo is using a Lampda sonde to measure the O2, and adjust the fuel metering, I'd say it qualifies as such..... Perhaps not as good as the BMSK.... Nevertheless...... closed loop. I am not aware of a way to increase torque on a dyno. As far as I know, the resistance if fixed, and personally I think it would be biased if you now include the operator in the equation, trying to hold 2500 rpm, as the resistive load increases. I will visit with the local Dyno guys, and get with you through pm, no later than Monday, as I have a full plate today, and tomorrow.
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Old 11-03-2013, 05:34 AM   #577
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Originally Posted by ebrabaek View Post
It might be that the BMSK is better at Closed looping. I won't argue that, but by definition as the DJ combo is using a Lampda sonde to measure the O2, and adjust the fuel metering, I'd say it qualifies as such..... Perhaps not as good as the BMSK.... Nevertheless...... closed loop. I am not aware of a way to increase torque on a dyno. As far as I know, the resistance if fixed, and personally I think it would be biased if you now include the operator in the equation, trying to hold 2500 rpm, as the resistive load increases. I will visit with the local Dyno guys, and get with you through pm, no later than Monday, as I have a full plate today, and tomorrow.
The operator sets RPM and the Dyno software and hardware create the resistance needed to keep it at that rpm. The operator holds the throttle at various degrees open (measured). This is how BMW works out the VE table and fueling required. It is the best way to use the dyno but is costly.
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Old 11-03-2013, 05:59 AM   #578
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"The operator sets RPM and the Dyno software and hardware create the resistance needed to keep it at that rpm. The operator holds the throttle at various degrees open (measured). This is how BMW works out the VE table and fueling required. It is the best way to use the dyno but is costly.
RB"

That's also how a tuner who knows what he's doing, tunes a bike with a PCV,PV, or any tuning device, for that matter. The first thing you have to do is establish a VE table, and build from there. I think that leaving a PCV with Auto Tune in auto function, is counterproductive. Use the AT for what it's intended to do, establish a tuning table, and then turn it off, or simply use it as a AFR gauge(if you have a display unit). It's really not intended to be a "closed loop" device IMO. Merely a tuning tool, to get the tables set. The BMSK sounds like a tough nut to crack, and no matter what aftermarket tuner you use, you may always be chasing a moving target, as it tries to compensate for any changes that an external device puts in the mix? It's interesting stuff for sure. Look forward to using my GS911 and perhaps a WB monitor to see whats happening in there.

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Old 11-03-2013, 06:44 AM   #579
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I'm glad to hear you say that, about proper dyno tuning. Makes sense. I agree with you also regarding Autotune. The AFR targets that DJ ships the unit with look too rich in most places in the cruising range and too lean at wide throttle angles. Autotune also seems to create a lot of cell to cell discontinuity. It's hard to understand a +30% cell next to a +5%.

The challenge trying to tune any BMSK is that as soon as you pull the O2 sensor it outputs a 10% variable AFR stream. By definition you can't get it closer than 5%. Given that most fueling changes are 6-8%, that 5% figure looks huge.
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Old 11-03-2013, 07:50 AM   #580
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I am seeing the light at the end of the tunnel......... and it does not appear to be a freight train.....
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Old 11-04-2013, 10:22 AM   #581
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:)

I do wish that DJ would put the same effort into their BMSK products, as they do for H-D's. Their Power Vision flash tuner is PFM in a Twin Cam Harley...I love the thing! Probably just not enough folks riding BMW's who also want to tinker with the ECM, to make it worth their while.

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Old 11-04-2013, 11:32 AM   #582
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Ue

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:)

I do wish that DJ would put the same effort into their BMSK products, as they do for H-D's. Their Power Vision flash tuner is PFM in a Twin Cam Harley...I love the thing! Probably just not enough folks riding BMW's who also want to tinker with the ECM, to make it worth their while.

Jeff
Funny how things change. I have a copy of a letter from DJ to Harley riders which was intended to explain why they weren't going to add a Wideband O2 option to the Harley PC III USB, as they had for BMW oil heads.

In the letter they explained that BMW was unique and needed closed loop to function properly but that HDs didn't! The Harley riders felt shortchanged.

If I come across it I'll post the link.

RB
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Old 11-04-2013, 11:51 AM   #583
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Here is the contents of that letter from 6-7 years ago:

"Let us start with why the BMW uses a wide band O2 sensor as part of the unit. The bike already has a "closed loop" circuit as part of the OEM injection system. It does not "auto map" the entire rpm/throttle position range of the fuel map. Generally speaking, the closed loop system only adjusts the fuel curve below 40% throttle. Above that the system is "open loop". The new Wide Band BMW unit only controls the stock "closed loop" area. Outside of that the bike is mapped in the normal fashion, on the dyno.

We would actually prefer not to maintain the closed loop section. Due to the design of the [BMW] OEM injection system it is not possible to bypass it as we do with other models. Closed Loop systems are not the "magic" that most people believe they are. There are a number of problems that keep it from being the best choice for high performance applications."

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Old 11-04-2013, 11:54 AM   #584
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.... DJ at it's industry best, giving people only tidbits, as they deems it necessary. I think too, that the PC-5 would have great potential, if they did not just send it to market with most of it's features inop in the BMW app. Perhaps when something else becomes available for less money working better, they will wake up...... then again.....perhaps not.
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Old 11-04-2013, 07:35 PM   #585
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Wow, I'm hoping whoever wrote that DJ letter was encouraged by management to find new opportunities, involuntarily if needed.

Anyway, I'm surprised DJ even tries to hit the bike market, much less specific models. It would seem to me that we are a pretty small market share. Thus my expectations of their equipment and support is pretty low.

David
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