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Old 11-12-2013, 07:38 PM   #31
TBR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STROMVADER View Post
Look how far Kymco has come.
KYMCO is not a Chinese company. KYMCO or Kwang Yang Motor Co, Ltd, is a Taiwanese company that manufactures motor scooters, motorcycles, and ATVs for worldwide distribution.
Founded in 1963 after splitting from Honda, KYMCO originally made parts for Honda.

You are confusing Kymco with Loncin (Loncin produced some small diplacement BMW engines or still do).

side-note: usually the export models have beeter parts / components compared to the domestic China models... 'nuff said....
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Old 11-12-2013, 07:38 PM   #32
hambone650rider
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I wouldn't buy a Chinese bike, but the bike looks the part.
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Old 11-12-2013, 08:21 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNC View Post
Chris, I would agree with some of those aspects you mention about the difference. Japan was/is unlike most other oriental countries. Even those products in a depressed, post-WWII Japan were created and manufactured by a citizenry that had proven itself capable of some mighty fine machinery. And the Japanese were notorious for their pride in their work. Still, having sampled a good bit of Chinese product ranging from Harbor Freight to bicycle shops, I think it's clear that they're moving forward.
I'd say Harbor Freight is controlling the quality of the tool at their stores.
Not saying it's Snap-on quality, but rather a US company dictating a certain level of quality vrs just HF buying Chinese tools available to all and them selling them here.

The Chinese can and do build quality when instructed and paid to.
Left on their own to make design and quality decisions, their products often are often junk.

The Chinese are learning if slowly buy copying what foreign companies are asking them to make and then copying that. Still they cheap out in the end. It's a culture of copying not innovation and this is the problem. Very different culturally thing vrs say a Japanese mfg who would be shamed to sell cheaped out goods. The Chinese can build quality they just choose not to and thus this is the reason they will always be several steeps behind. Maybe in 20 years they will build 1980s Japanese quality.
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eakins screwed with this post 11-12-2013 at 08:26 PM
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Old 11-12-2013, 08:31 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by hambone650rider View Post
I wouldn't buy a Chinese bike, but the bike looks the part.
If Honda keep making the XR400 with that general design with electric start and USD forks it would indeed sell very well in the US. Add FI to seal the deal.

Honda in fact still uses the XR400 motor in other markets.
Look no farther than 1 country to the south.
http://www.honda.mx/motos/falcon/
It has cheaper frame and suspension however than the US XR400R did, but a capable bike non the less.
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Old 11-12-2013, 10:53 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
I'd say Harbor Freight is controlling the quality of the tool at their stores.
Not saying it's Snap-on quality, but rather a US company dictating a certain level of quality vrs just HF buying Chinese tools available to all and them selling them here.

The Chinese can and do build quality when instructed and paid to.
Left on their own to make design and quality decisions, their products often are often junk.

The Chinese are learning if slowly buy copying what foreign companies are asking them to make and then copying that. Still they cheap out in the end. It's a culture of copying not innovation and this is the problem. Very different culturally thing vrs say a Japanese mfg who would be shamed to sell cheaped out goods. The Chinese can build quality they just choose not to and thus this is the reason they will always be several steeps behind. Maybe in 20 years they will build 1980s Japanese quality.
Yep that's why they have the so many PHD's.

http://blog.inomics.com/chinese-phds-vs-us-phds/

And why they are going to the moon and Mars...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_space_program

And why the Brits went down with 2 cylinder Triumphs and we build Harleys.


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Old 11-13-2013, 02:19 AM   #36
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+1 on that bmwktmbill, when I was a kid my father and just about every other male would forever be slagging off Japanese cars for there poor build quality,( bonnets/wings/body work in general, at the time the Japanese where using poor quality steel) they all pretty much agreed though, that when they got there act together on build quality it would be game over for the domestic car manufacturers, that was 30 years ago and there are no longer any uk car manufacturers. I believe we will see the same with Chinese automotive manufacturing.
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Old 11-13-2013, 04:59 AM   #37
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I would buy one, hell it would be twice the bike that my current 200cc chinabike is!

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I'd rather be riding a 200 in Ecuador than any dream bike here.
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Old 11-13-2013, 06:21 AM   #38
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Even if the bike isn't junk, until they stop selling them out of Conex boxes in dirt parking lots China bikes are a no go for me. I make motorcycles break because I ride them off-road. So having my spare parts located 7,000 miles away instead of a short drive or a 2-3 day UPS delivery away from dealers I know stock my parts doesn't work well. What Honda did right back in the day was NOT selling bikes out Western Auto stores and dirt parking lots.
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Old 11-13-2013, 11:48 AM   #39
miguelitro
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In the rest of the world it is the opposite. I can an entire top end for my china bike for $75 10 minutes away but the Honda store that has anything is in the big city 3 hours away!
It seems that Shineray is selling a water cooled 250 here though they are not common so parts may be an issue. We likely wont get the bigger bikes in mass as Ecuador heavily taxes anything over 250 cc's or so.
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I'd rather be riding a 200 in Ecuador than any dream bike here.
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Old 11-13-2013, 12:42 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Grreatdog View Post
Even if the bike isn't junk, until they stop selling them out of Conex boxes in dirt parking lots China bikes are a no go for me. I make motorcycles break because I ride them off-road. So having my spare parts located 7,000 miles away instead of a short drive or a 2-3 day UPS delivery away from dealers I know stock my parts doesn't work well. What Honda did right back in the day was NOT selling bikes out Western Auto stores and dirt parking lots.
It's true that the image of many Chinese bikes being sold at Pep Boys and vacant lots tends to demean the whole category of potential Chinese bikes. But I think this is more of a change in the way entrepreneurs pursue capitalistic endeavors than a comparison of how Honda pursued the American market in 1959. Unlike Mr. Honda who would probably not be prone to "cutting corners", China seems willing to produce whatever level of quality a given customer wants/demands. If you pay for quality design and manufacture, elements in China seem more than capable of producing it. I think their "blackeye" seems to come from their willingness to produce whatever level quality or cheapness a given customer wants to pay for. Japan did this too, to some extent, as evidenced by many truly cheesy products after WWII just to survive. And I'm not sure we can use Mr. Honda as a general example of product ethic during the 50's and 60's. He was pretty special.

I sound like I'm really "standing up" for Chinese products, but that's not necessarily the case. I'm currently retired and work part time in a bicycle shop. I've seen a wide array of Chinese product from junk to impressive over the last 10 years.
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Old 11-13-2013, 01:00 PM   #41
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In S.E Asia, where I live; when a Chinese bike breaks we fit a Honda genuine (usually) spare part to it's cloned Chinese engine.

They can be quite good bikes, these Shinerays.
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Old 11-13-2013, 04:33 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBR View Post
KYMCO is not a Chinese company. KYMCO or Kwang Yang Motor Co, Ltd, is a Taiwanese company that manufactures motor scooters, motorcycles, and ATVs for worldwide distribution.
Founded in 1963 after splitting from Honda, KYMCO originally made parts for Honda.

You are confusing Kymco with Loncin (Loncin produced some small diplacement BMW engines or still do).

side-note: usually the export models have beeter parts / components compared to the domestic China models... 'nuff said....
.

Something I found from dealernews.com

BMW Taps KYMCO
admin
BMW's forthcoming G 450 X enduro is powered by an engine sourced from Taiwan's Kwang Yang Motor Co. Ltd. (KYMCO).

Although developed by BMW, the 449cc single-cylinder DOHC four-stroke engine powering the model is manufactured by KYMCO in Kaoshiung, Taiwan, then shipped to BMW's motorcycle production facility in Berlin.

"We and our partners developed a dedicated production line for this product that will deliver all of the processes and strict quality controls that have come to be expected from BMW," explains Peter M
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Old 11-13-2013, 05:18 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TNC View Post
I'm not sure we can use Mr. Honda as a general example of product ethic during the 50's and 60's. He was pretty special.
The list is far larger than Mr Honda, lots of national pride in Japan. China is all about $$ as evident in their willingness to compromise quality to make a buck. No, there's very little to compare with the Japanese. I've yet to see a uniquely designed (100%) MC made by them. It's not for lack of talent, there's lots of very smart engineers coming out of China.

You'd think they've used enough of everyone else's castings that they'd have come up with a few models that are 100% Chinese. I guess it's not a priority for them. If you guys know of any, shoot me a link, I'd be really interested in seeing them.
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Old 11-13-2013, 06:06 PM   #44
TBR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STROMVADER View Post
BMW's G 450 X enduro
Where can I buy the G450X BMW now?
Hasn't BMW stopped production after a short one or two year production run?

LONCIN produces the 650cc engine (BMW) in the Chongqing plant and thats in deepest Mainland China as far as i know......
Furthermore LONCIN sells a 650cc thumper bike with the same engine only in Mainland China due to restrictions by BMW on export.
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Old 11-13-2013, 06:08 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by KustomizingKid View Post
Engine looks like an air cooled Honda rip off, xr400? Suspension is probably total shit. Otherwise not bad.

Also, fuel injection? Fuck carbs on an adv bike IMO.
Hence KTM still using carbs on their Dakar/Baja bikes.

Fixing plugged injectors in the field is a race loser.
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