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Old 11-21-2013, 08:24 AM   #91
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 1,055
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyc21 View Post
Thanks for sharing that Motobene... The video was intresting, now I am going to have to take some time and look more at Dan Pink's information.
I like guys like that. Good change often creeps in from the fringes!
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Old 12-31-2013, 10:28 AM   #92
jonnyc21
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Location: Boise aria
Oddometer: 872
Wicked Took the plunge... My shock is on its way to motobene

It took a few to get everything together but... I ordered up some Red Line, shipped my rear shock yesterday, and pulled the front out to drain them. So motobene will be re-valving soon.

Once I get it back and have a chance to ride it I will give a ride report. Should have it back in the bike in about 3 to 3 1/2 weeks. I am sure it will take some adjustment on my part before I am use to the change in the settings but should have some good ride info between weeks 4 and 5 for everyone.

Next on the list... the clutch... I am thinking I should leave it tell the suspension is done so I don't have to many changes at once and can report on each change by them self.

Clutch:
Round 1 take out 2 of the 6 springs then hen ride with my current ELF oil to see the change.
Round 2 will be a change to some "MAXIMA MTL Extra Light Transmission Fluid"
Round 3 set to what I liked best (unless I can think of something else before then)

lets see where this takes me. (FYI: I am all ears for other changes I may or may not try things depending but still open to hear them all)
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Old 12-31-2013, 11:58 AM   #93
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 1,055
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyc21 View Post
It took a few to get everything together but... I ordered up some Red Line, shipped my rear shock yesterday, and pulled the front out to drain them. So motobene will be re-valving soon.

Once I get it back and have a chance to ride it I will give a ride report. Should have it back in the bike in about 3 to 3 1/2 weeks. I am sure it will take some adjustment on my part before I am use to the change in the settings but should have some good ride info between weeks 4 and 5 for everyone.

Next on the list... the clutch... I am thinking I should leave it tell the suspension is done so I don't have to many changes at once and can report on each change by them self.

Clutch:
Round 1 take out 2 of the 6 springs then hen ride with my current ELF oil to see the change.
Round 2 will be a change to some "MAXIMA MTL Extra Light Transmission Fluid"
Round 3 set to what I liked best (unless I can think of something else before then)

lets see where this takes me. (FYI: I am all ears for other changes I may or may not try things depending but still open to hear them all)
Assuming nothing goes pfft (like a shipping foible), I should have the shock back to you and revalved inside of the 10th.

I suggested last night to johnnyc21 to not change tranny oil yet, but try the -2 clutch springs with the ELF oil. It's a simple procedure:

Lay bike on side opposite the clutch. Remove the cover. Remove the screws progressively to back off on spring pressure. Set aside the steel plate the slave cylinder pushes on and remove two clutch springs on opposite sides. Replace the plate, putting all six clutch screws back in progressively. Refit cover and enjoy a clutch you can forget about even after you get tired in a tough trial.

The 4RT we have here has been running four springs a long time and the owner continues to state adamantly he'll never go back to six spring. I rode the bike a while Saturday, doing some 4th gear WFO clutch dumps to launch over a gap and rock after slamming a kicker. Still no slipping when the lever is released fully.

One more thing. The shock johnnyc is sending me is off an `07. That'll provide a direct view of the valve stack specs on the `07. I doubt HRC changed it from `05 because his suspension is described as slow responding like the `05. But better to assume nothing until proven.
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Old 01-05-2014, 09:47 PM   #94
Thats_a_Five
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I finally got to start making some of the mods listed in this thread. First thing - turned front rebound to minimum. Didn't notice a big difference so thorough cleaning and lighter oil are on the list.

I took 2 of the springs out of the clutch and rode the bike today while setting up an event for next weekend. Wow, huge improvement! It is now possible for me to slip the clutch in a (semi) controlled fashion. Now, I need to learn how to use that technique.

Thanks Motobene. Or should I say "multo-bene."
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:08 AM   #95
motobene OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thats_a_Five View Post
I finally got to start making some of the mods listed in this thread. First thing - turned front rebound to minimum. Didn't notice a big difference so thorough cleaning and lighter oil are on the list.

I took 2 of the springs out of the clutch and rode the bike today while setting up an event for next weekend. Wow, huge improvement! It is now possible for me to slip the clutch in a (semi) controlled fashion. Now, I need to learn how to use that technique.

Thanks Motobene. Or should I say "multo-bene."
Cool. You got the Italian word play ('motorcycle good' from 'very good').
And you are welcome!

A great help to learning clutch slipping better is to not have a hyper-active clutch intruding on the learning process. Optimization is getting machine quirks out of your way so you can do the most with what you have. At zero cost (except a few minutes of labor), the 4-springs mod is perhaps the most cost and effective mod you can do to a 4RT. And there's no substitute for objective peer review, so I really appreciate you reporting back on your results. "Huge improvement" and nothing blew up... hmmm.

Modern, faster action out of the older model 4RT forks with adjusters working in a useful range requires a re valve or significantly lower fork oil viscosity. The Redline 2.5 and Redline Like Water are great tools to avoid the cost and work of developing a re valve.

I believe I recommended earlier in this thread to use some or all 2.5 in the spring (compression side) to slow things a bit for hot weather. Given I am a busy fellow like most of you, I prefer all-seasons settings over seasonal fiddling, especially not having to change fork oils for seasons. The Like Water will span all seasons with just clicks of adjusters, but half or all 2.5 in the one side may be a tad more optimal when it's 95 degrees outside.

There is weight, and perception of weight. The 4RT is a heavier bike, and with the older suspension specs the older models also impart more perception of weight. The suspension's ability to respond to rider input better from the fork oils mod will really improve the perception of weight issue, but you need to mod the rear to get at 60% of the improvement. I should receive another shock to mod any day now.

I assume the 2014 models have modernized suspension specs, because not changing that would be stupid beyond belief for Honda/Showa (and Olle 16V). The 4RT is substantially unchanged since its intro 9 years ago. It's still a heavier bike at 70kg dry (Cota) and 73kg dry ('Racing' model). The more affordable model gives you 3kg to come down to the 2014 FIM weight minimum if that matters to at all to the rest of us (it doesn't).

Here is a link to titanium and carbon bits by an Italian company who will be happy to trade money for weight reduction:

http://www.vitititaniowtc.com/en/mot...oto-trial.html
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:05 AM   #96
KrAzyOSUcOwBoY
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Joined: Mar 2006
Location: SW Okla
Oddometer: 112
I have to chuckle at the resistance to the clutch springs removal. My experience is much improvement as well with NO slipping. I am tempted to remove 1 more for only 3 remaining and test the results. You can't know until you try.
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:05 AM   #97
Thats_a_Five
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Location: Edgewood, WA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrAzyOSUcOwBoY View Post
I have to chuckle at the resistance to the clutch springs removal. My experience is much improvement as well with NO slipping. I am tempted to remove 1 more for only 3 remaining and test the results. You can't know until you try.
Part of my previous resistance came from reading the factory manual about getting to the clutch and it stared with "drain the coolant, remove the water pump, remove the kick lever, ......). Then I looked more closely at the bike and saw I could simply remove 5 or 6 bolts and the smaller cover over the clutch basket was removable. Whipped that bad boy off, took out two springs and slapped it back together. Simple and very effective change.

You are correct MotoBene that I struggled in the past with learning because the clutch was too jerky (or maybe it was just me being jerky). Now it works so much smoother.

I'll probably go to the Red-line "Like Water: in the forks because it just doesn't get to 95 degrees in Seattle.

Ride on! Thanks again for all the work you guys did to uncover these improvements.
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:24 AM   #98
jonnyc21
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Getting excited, my shock is almost at motobene's!

As indicated before I will play with the bike for a week or two with the new suspension update. After I have a better feel for the bike the way it is I will update the clutch -2 springs and rid it like that using my ELF oil tell the next oil change. Final update will be to try the Maxima extra light to compare with the ELF.

Report to fallow with each change.
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:34 AM   #99
KrAzyOSUcOwBoY
kRaZy
 
Joined: Mar 2006
Location: SW Okla
Oddometer: 112
I tried a variety of light (no ELF) to very heavy gear box oils and have had the best luck with....dramatic pause....Silkolene 10w40 Off Road engine oil. I did have to wait for it to work into the plates for maximum effect, took a couple of hours.
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Old 01-06-2014, 12:27 PM   #100
jonnyc21
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Thanks I will add that one to the list as one to try.
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Old 01-07-2014, 08:12 AM   #101
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 1,055
Quote:
Originally Posted by KrAzyOSUcOwBoY View Post
I tried a variety of light (no ELF) to very heavy gear box oils and have had the best luck with....dramatic pause....Silkolene 10w40 Off Road engine oil. I did have to wait for it to work into the plates for maximum effect, took a couple of hours.
This oil was on top of the removal of two springs. Most of the beneficial change was form the lower net pressure plate clamping force, and the oil was icing on the cake. The clutch on KrAzy's `05 (with `06 plates) now works well enough such that the hyper-active distraction has now faded into the background.

The experience with the Silkolene oil made me ponder the friction modifiers used by various manufacturers as being a notable variable.

I think I'll try this oil in the Raga (now using ATF+4 and a bit of 20W50) just to see what happens.
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Old 01-07-2014, 08:13 AM   #102
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 1,055
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyc21 View Post
Getting excited, my shock is almost at motobene's!

As indicated before I will play with the bike for a week or two with the new suspension update. After I have a better feel for the bike the way it is I will update the clutch -2 springs and rid it like that using my ELF oil tell the next oil change. Final update will be to try the Maxima extra light to compare with the ELF.

Report to fallow with each change.
Shock received! A nice clean `07 at that. Will dive into it this evening or tomorrow.
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Old 01-09-2014, 11:15 PM   #103
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 1,055
Finally got my Redline oil and serviced and re valved a 2007 4RT Showa shock. I adopted a few minor specs changes from the 2005 re valve I developed last year. I free up things with a significant reduction in low and mid-speed compression and especially rebound damping to get rid of the "Who turned up the gravity" old-world damping specs.

This shock is a pain to re valve because the shock rod is smooshed (looks like a rotary rivet operation) over the valve stack nut and requires machining.

I can now confirm the valve specs and the shock are exactly the same on a 2007 as the model intro year, 2005. Very unlikely the 2007 forks are any different and thus will remain too slow (who turned up the gravity?) I wonder how far into later model years Montesa carried this handicap?

This particular shock was is pretty good shape. Just normal wear. Here's what the oil looks like in a moderate hours machine, poured into a clear glass:



The oil, likely Showa SS5, is yellow-clear when new. After some hours the oil starts accunmulating metal and metal oxide particles, resembling a dark silver paint.

Here is the re done shock, ready for shipping tomorrow:


motobene screwed with this post 01-09-2014 at 11:23 PM
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Old 01-09-2014, 11:28 PM   #104
jonnyc21
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Fantastic! I have my oil as well and will be setting up my front forks this weekend in prep for the shock. After I am done and have a chance for my first ride I will report my initial impressions and will update with a more complete report after a week or so of time on the bike.
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Old 01-10-2014, 07:41 AM   #105
motobene OP
Motoing for 43 years
 
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: Wichita Mountains SW Oklahoma
Oddometer: 1,055
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonnyc21 View Post
Fantastic! I have my oil as well and will be setting up my front forks this weekend in prep for the shock. After I am done and have a chance for my first ride I will report my initial impressions and will update with a more complete report after a week or so of time on the bike.
In your evaluations, please feel free to discuss openly your thoughts, positive and negative. The point of all of this is to make things better, and if something isn't please feel free to say so.

I noticed on your lower shock eye the seal was damaged in a previous assembly, perhaps at the factory? The spherical joint isn't sloppy, but it is looser than the upper one. I stuffed both full of grease which will act a seal. Both eyes were at the end of their maintenance cycle. I assume while you have your shock out that you will be doing all the swing arm and linkage maintenance. Suggest full packing, no air spaces if possible. The 4RT's hardware is very high quality. If you have some corrosion witness and no deep grooves, just scotch bright it off.

Just to cap it off, the whole package of mods will be:

- Faster rear shock

I am sending you the shock with 0 clicks in on the rebound adjuster (it came to me as 9 clicks in out of 13, making the shock quite slow on top of the already slow specs). The 0 clicks in will give you direct feel of minimum rebound. It should be a bit too fast in cold weather. In your shock I used 2.5 instead of Like Water in the 2005. That will slow it a bit over the 2005. To compensate I made a small tweak to my re valve specs, but wasn't able to test the oil and tweak as I have no 4RT or shock dyno. I'll rely on your detailed feedback.

I can't remember where we settled on the 2005 rebound adjuster. I think close to 6 clicks in.

- Faster front forks to match the shock

Per above specs.

- The 4-springs clutch mod to calm response and ease clutch pull

- Change of bike attitude (pitch) to reduce oversteer

More squat - lower preload and forks lower in the triple clamps (experiment).

- Handlebars far forward for mystery reasons.

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