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Old 12-06-2013, 03:05 PM   #121
laterider
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I admit it.

I have crashed on the street, gravel, dirt, big rocks and mud. None of those of much consequence. Track crash something else all together. Low side on an off camber righthander. Everything copacetic: protective gear working, bike ahead of me, then the rumble strip curve. OUCH. 5 ribs, scapular and destroyed bike bodywork. One can get hurt even when everyone's going the same way and there's no crossing traffic.
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Old 12-06-2013, 05:57 PM   #122
390beretta
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Originally Posted by blue72beetle View Post
I understand that positioning the bike is a good idea. I saw a video awhile back of a rider that stopped for construction, or backed up traffic or something and pretty much stopped right on the white line. A car behind him wasn't paying attention and rear ended the car ahead of him, all captured on go-pro right beside the rider.

What I don't buy is this:



I believe at least 95% of riders don't have the skills/ability/brainpower/spidey-sense (whatever you want to call it) to accomplish all of the following in enough time to avoid a legitimate rear ender headed their way.

a) determine if the car behind them is actually going to hit them or not
b) look ahead and choose an escape route (what if you're first in line? just ride out into cross traffic?)
c) move the bike to the intended route fast enough to avoid collision

All the above needs to happen very quickly if a car really is barrelling down on you. I understand no two situations are alike, but I think most of the time, there isn't enough time, for someone to do all of that. Of course motorcyclists should have a high level of situational awareness, but step A above isn't as cut and dry as "well if you just watch your mirrors you'll see if you're gonna get rear-ended"

My main point is that blame shouldn't be placed on the rider for most rear endings, which is in opposition to the original post. Like I said, I'd like someone that has actually done this to post their story and prove me wrong. I will have the utmost respect for your superhero skills. My 2 cents, YMMV, etc....
Bluebeetle:

You know, I sort of "get" some of your posts and I sort of "don't get some of them": When you say "95% of riders don't have the skills, awareness, reflexes (I'm paraphrasing) to make quick decisions, etc. I'd say they need to learn them and practice them. If you ride in an urban environment, there are certain practices and skills and routines that you should have, otherwise, you're at much higher risk. I'm sorry to say that 90% of my last 20,000 miles have been in Phoenix city traffic. People here (cagers) drive as if they're mentally de-ranged, angry or on drugs. (mostly the younger women will tail-gate your ass while texting) Seemingly none of them can come to even a brief stop light without "entertaining" themselves on a smart-phone. In this environment, I'm always alert, paying attention...and just the slightest bit paranoid. I have no idea where you ride/live, hopefully not in a similar environment, but regardless, I wish you the best and good luck, but don't discount my posts out of hand.
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Old 12-09-2013, 12:41 PM   #123
Red9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue72beetle View Post
I understand that positioning the bike is a good idea. I saw a video awhile back of a rider that stopped for construction, or backed up traffic or something and pretty much stopped right on the white line. A car behind him wasn't paying attention and rear ended the car ahead of him, all captured on go-pro right beside the rider.

What I don't buy is this:



I believe at least 95% of riders don't have the skills/ability/brainpower/spidey-sense (whatever you want to call it) to accomplish all of the following in enough time to avoid a legitimate rear ender headed their way.

a) determine if the car behind them is actually going to hit them or not
b) look ahead and choose an escape route (what if you're first in line? just ride out into cross traffic?)
c) move the bike to the intended route fast enough to avoid collision

All the above needs to happen very quickly if a car really is barrelling down on you. I understand no two situations are alike, but I think most of the time, there isn't enough time, for someone to do all of that. Of course motorcyclists should have a high level of situational awareness, but step A above isn't as cut and dry as "well if you just watch your mirrors you'll see if you're gonna get rear-ended"

My main point is that blame shouldn't be placed on the rider for most rear endings, which is in opposition to the original post. Like I said, I'd like someone that has actually done this to post their story and prove me wrong. I will have the utmost respect for your superhero skills. My 2 cents, YMMV, etc....
I agree 100%.
There is not enough time.

In 1979 I was stopped in the inside lane of a four lane, in town, waiting for oncoming traffic to pass so I could make a left turn.
Don't ask me why or how but I glanced in my left rear-view mirror and all I saw was chrome grill. Where there wasn't one a moment before....
With the reflexes of a 21 year old, I dived off the left side of my bike into the open oncoming lane. (I had been waiting for a car in the far oncoming lane to pass. Whew!)
The car (an old Crown Vic driven by a couple in their late 70's) hit my brand new Daytona Special as it was still standing straight up, punted it down the road and then continued on with the bike eventually becoming pinned underneath their car for over one block!

There is absolutely no way I could have let out the clutch and given it enough gas to pull away in time.

Since then I always stop pointed to the left or right side of any car in front of me.
I figure if I get hit from behind at least I will be pushed to the side and not sandwiched or.... maybe I will have time to dive off again.
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:33 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homey View Post
The arrow they painted on the road covered almost the entire lane, I was going 20mph max in 80degree weather with top of the line Michelin tires. I've raced over painted surfaces before let alone 20mph. Plus the city admitted they screwed up and paid to have my bike fixed.
Probably it had just been painted and there was still loose sand. In any case, the lesson is that it wasn't a prepared race surface. Just avoid leaning on the paint at all times... Up here in the Pacific NorthWet, I pretty much have to anyway.

Quote:
I don't think that just that act of riding more makes anyone a better rider. If you don't work on becoming a better rider you are doomed to make the same mistakes over and over again.
Violent agreement. In safety training, we ask "experienced" riders a rhetorical question: Have they ridden 10,000 miles, or one mile 10,000 times? Typically it's more the latter.

Quote:
Some people I know are just as bad of riders now as they were the day they started.
Worse, more than likely; Like a tool left in the bottom of your toolbox, skills not used will be rusty or missing if you don't take them out and polish them up a little now and then.
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Old 12-09-2013, 01:53 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
Probably it had just been painted and there was still loose sand. In any case, the lesson is that it wasn't a prepared race surface. Just avoid leaning on the paint at all times... Up here in the Pacific NorthWet, I pretty much have to anyway.

Violent agreement. In safety training, we ask "experienced" riders a rhetorical question: Have they ridden 10,000 miles, or one mile 10,000 times? Typically it's more the latter.

Worse, more than likely; Like a tool left in the bottom of your toolbox, skills not used will be rusty or missing if you don't take them out and polish them up a little now and then.
When I learned about countersteering I had been riding 18 years. Since that time, my control has been far more conscious, and quicker. It took a lot of the mystery out of the experience, and I use the handlebars differently. I can't think of a single other thing that has improved my riding skill anywhere near that much. But I like this positioning thing. Preparation. I saw that video.
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Old 12-09-2013, 05:22 PM   #126
390beretta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red9 View Post
I agree 100%.
There is not enough time.

In 1979 I was stopped in the inside lane of a four lane, in town, waiting for oncoming traffic to pass so I could make a left turn.
Don't ask me why or how but I glanced in my left rear-view mirror and all I saw was chrome grill. Where there wasn't one a moment before....
With the reflexes of a 21 year old, I dived off the left side of my bike into the open oncoming lane. (I had been waiting for a car in the far oncoming lane to pass. Whew!)
The car (an old Crown Vic driven by a couple in their late 70's) hit my brand new Daytona Special as it was still standing straight up, punted it down the road and then continued on with the bike eventually becoming pinned underneath their car for over one block!

There is absolutely no way I could have let out the clutch and given it enough gas to pull away in time.

Since then I always stop pointed to the left or right side of any car in front of me.
I figure if I get hit from behind at least I will be pushed to the side and not sandwiched or.... maybe I will have time to dive off again.
Red9, If you glanced in your mirror and all you saw was "chrome grill", then you hadn't been paying enough attention in the moments before that happened. Your post doesn't really provide enough info: Were you first at the light? Or were you 2-3 cars back? From your post it appears that no one had yet stopped behind you? It's sooo easy to blame others for our lacks. I'm happy you weren't hurt, but when you ride in an urban environment, given all the shit that cagers do, your safety is YOUR responsibility! The alternative is getting hurt or worse and feeling sorry for yourself the rest of your life.
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:40 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwoodward View Post
Probably it had just been painted and there was still loose sand. In any case, the lesson is that it wasn't a prepared race surface. Just avoid leaning on the paint at all times... Up here in the Pacific NorthWet, I pretty much have to anyway...
Yep, it was freshly painted and they were supposed to mark it. You're right, they put some kind of powdery stuff on it, slicker than snot. I wasn't actually leaning while on the paint I was slowing. Not even hard on the brakes and only going 20mph or so. One should be able to ride over a painted arrow at that speed without having to worry about falling on your head. If it was wet it would have been a different situation but, it never rains down here in sunny SoCal.
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Old 12-10-2013, 01:42 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 390beretta View Post
Red9, If you glanced in your mirror and all you saw was "chrome grill", then you hadn't been paying enough attention in the moments before that happened. Your post doesn't really provide enough info: Were you first at the light? Or were you 2-3 cars back? From your post it appears that no one had yet stopped behind you? It's sooo easy to blame others for our lacks. I'm happy you weren't hurt, but when you ride in an urban environment, given all the shit that cagers do, your safety is YOUR responsibility! The alternative is getting hurt or worse and feeling sorry for yourself the rest of your life.
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Old 12-10-2013, 06:55 AM   #129
Red9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 390beretta View Post
Red9, If you glanced in your mirror and all you saw was "chrome grill", then you hadn't been paying enough attention in the moments before that happened. Your post doesn't really provide enough info: Were you first at the light? Or were you 2-3 cars back? From your post it appears that no one had yet stopped behind you? It's sooo easy to blame others for our lacks. I'm happy you weren't hurt, but when you ride in an urban environment, given all the shit that cagers do, your safety is YOUR responsibility! The alternative is getting hurt or worse and feeling sorry for yourself the rest of your life.
I wasn't at a light.
The car that hit me pulled out of a grocery store parking lot about 150 behind me.
It was driven by an older gentlemen (mid 70's) who pulled out quickly to miss the oncoming traffic I was waiting for and he obviously didn't see me.
I was turning off a four lane left onto a side street. As there was oncoming traffic I had to come to a stop. Amazingly I was returning from the bank after making the final payment on the bike...
After he hit the bike he continued on, until it was under his car and I believe he finally became aware of it. I actually chased him down and threw my helmet at his front window after he stopped. When the police arrived they cuffed me and threw me on the ground until witnesses told them what had happened and they looked under the car to see my bike pointing in the same direction as the car.

AS to checking my mirrors... I had been and always have constantly checked my rear mirrors likely more than anyone you know. One year earlier in heavy traffic while stopped I had been rear-ended by a transport. I had nowhere to go but sit there and listen to his locked up brakes screaming before he nailed me and sandwiched me into the car in front of me... drove both knees into the dash, broke my seat in two., broke my wife's seat and injured my kid in the back. All they had was lap belts back then...
I guess there is a bit of a commonality here because I got out of the car, climbed up the truck step, opened his door, and yanked him out onto the street. Adrenalin... lol I was going to kill him.

Hope this answers your questions.

Don't see how I could have possibly done any better in the first instance.
One second no bumper, next second all I saw was chrome and dived. I've actually been quite proud that my reactions were as quick as they were.

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Old 12-10-2013, 07:27 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Red9 View Post
Damn you like to preach.
My suggestion would be before doing so ask a couple questions.
It's a forum. I believe this was his way of asking questions. Your posts tend to be helpful (even though we disagree for the most part about car tires) and I believe (390's) are meant to be helpful as well.

How I read his post was he is trying to get more details from you to help other riders learn so they might escape suffering the same fate.
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:22 AM   #131
Red9
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Originally Posted by DAKEZ View Post
It's a forum. I believe this was his way of asking questions. Your posts tend to be helpful (even though we disagree for the most part about car tires) and I believe (390's) are meant to be helpful as well.

How I read his post was he is trying to get more details from you to help other learn so they might escape suffering the same fate.
My apologies.

I am the one who needed to go back and re-read.

Hopefully my adjusted post will answer questions posed.

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Old 12-10-2013, 03:27 PM   #132
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Yep Dakez, you're correct about my intent. Red9, no apology necessary. Dakez is correct, I guess I didn't quite understand your posts. Thanks to both you guys!
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