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Old 12-13-2013, 06:53 PM   #16
keiPHadventure OP
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@GearHeadGrrrl: One of my brothers has an F800S and the same thing happenened to me again. It's worse on my XCh's rear brake because I've had the ABS kick in while using the rear brake in some rough stuff, the pedal just went straight down and the bike kept plowing ahead... Very hairy moment there!

@Motopsychoman: That's fantastic if the front ABS on your Sertao is much more refined than the one on my XCh. How's the Sertao like to use? It's great that you used to be a road racer, you know how to maximize your brakes and know what you want to do with your bike. The Sertao is still relatively new, right? Maybe given enough push here and in other forums you might find a solution to deactivating just the rear ABS. Best of luck to you!

@L.B.S.: The bike speeding up while the ABS was working, that's exactly what happened to me too! I actually felt the front and rear suspension settle from the braking dive and free wheel while I was squeezing the front brake for all that it was worth! It's a funny thing in hindsight but the pain I get while eating these days bring me back to the horrifying and grim situation I'm in right now because of the ABS. Good pick on the NC700! Did you get the dual-clutch automatic model? It must be a great bike to ride! Cheers, mate!

@Pecha72: I know what you mean, and L.B.S. said it too. Other manufacturers and bikes do the driver aids quite well. Ducati and Honda sportbikes have wonderful, almost brilliant ABS and there's nothing negative I can say about those systems. Again, I don't hate the concept of ABS. It's just a model-specific issue that brought me here.

So, well, I know that there's a billion other panic situations that could happen to any other rider and maybe elevate the risk of accidents(or actually get into accidents), all I'm hoping for is every one of us will remain safe, unscathed and in one piece every time we travel. Ride safe, everyone!
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Old 12-13-2013, 07:56 PM   #17
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btw, sorry about the incident and your injuries, hope you heal up soon, buddy!

Mine is the NC700XA; the manual transmission, ABS/Combined model.

The first thing I did on the Honda test ride, was to find a set of railroad tracks and gnarly bumpy pavement, and nail the brakes going over them, over and over again.

I was amazed and ecstatic. Turned around, went back to the Dealer and said gimmee one of these!

Side note- I was very suspicious of, and resigned to the whole "combined" or linked brake thing, I really didn't want that either but again, I have to tip my hat to big Red for making my mistrust of the concept a total non-issue.

In day to day use, I cannot tell that my bike even has ABS or anything incestuous going on between the brakes, other than if I stomp heavily on the rear pedal, and feel the front dive ever so slightly, and the braking seems way better than it should, from only using the rear brake. (and of course the fact that the rear tire didn't instantly lock up, lol)

I went from an unrepentant ABS hater (the one and only car I've ever owned and driven in my whole life doesn't have ABS either) to a kool aid drinking convert with the NCX.
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Old 12-13-2013, 09:34 PM   #18
TexaNate
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ABS is designed to save you when you panic and grab a handful. FYI traction on rumble strips is greatly reduced so depending on your speed, you might not have been able to get enough traction on the wheel even without the ABS's hinderance.

When you say "Nothing could have prepared me for what happened", you are denying yourself this learning opportunity and I urge you to reflect more on what you could have done differently, before you get in an even worse accident.

Firstly - I could be full of crap but I recall some statistic that 60% (someone correct me if I'm wrong) of helmet impacts are to the face, where 3/4 helmets don't cover. In the future, you might consider a full-face helmet (I know they're rare over where you are but think about the added safety). If it's too hot, put the visor up.

Secondly - if you had no time to react or swerve away from a dangerous potential hazard (a parked car), you were probably riding too fast given your surroundings and you were not anticipating every possibility. Even if you were a MotoGP champion on the perfect bike on the perfect surface, and were able to stop accordingly - what would have stopped someone from rear-ending you? I'm all for being able to execute a flawless e-stop or a graceful swerve, but we should never have to use those tools unless we screw up with our awareness and strategy - even when other people pull out in front of us. It is our responsibility to slow down and leave ourselves enough time to react within the bounds of our skills and equipment. This collision obviously isn't your fault, but that doesn't mean you can't take steps to ensure it won't happen again in the future.

I wish you a speedy recovery.
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Old 12-14-2013, 04:25 AM   #19
keiPHadventure OP
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@L.B.S.: Sounds great! Congratulations on your new bike! I would have loved to own one as well. I really like the NC in every aspect. Looks nice, too! Cheers to you! Ride safe!

@TexaNate: I get your points, thanks for the input. Very well said.

Here's the sad part: I've always been a sportbike rider since middle school and I've prided myself on maintaining the discipline of always wearing full-face helmets. My BMW is my first foray into the off-road scene. I've also been careful to choose the top-shelf helmets, even if they're extremely expensive. For some reason, on that day that I did get into an accident, I chose to wear my partner's half-face helmet. It could be a cruel twist of fate, or maybe a one in ten thousand moment, I'm not sure. But the fact remains that that one lapse of my judgement brought me a big problem. I'll make sure NEVER to use open-face helmets again!

And you could be right, I may have misjudged some of my actions that day. I may not admit it to myself either, but who knows? You're quite correct as well, the rear-ending part you mentioned was a big possibility on my mind. If I did slow/stop in time, I still couldn't trust the braking ability of the driver behind me. That thought is drilled into my brain everytime I ride or drive and I cringe everytime I think of it.
I've also thought about what other outcome I may have gotten into, and right now I am happier that my accident is a lot less worse than if someone rear-ended me. I take solace in that.

Thanks for your advice. I really appreciate it.
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Old 12-14-2013, 02:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keiPHadventure View Post
@L.B.S.: Sounds great! Congratulations on your new bike! I would have loved to own one as well. I really like the NC in every aspect. Looks nice, too! Cheers to you! Ride safe!

@TexaNate: I get your points, thanks for the input. Very well said.

Here's the sad part: I've always been a sportbike rider since middle school and I've prided myself on maintaining the discipline of always wearing full-face helmets. My BMW is my first foray into the off-road scene. I've also been careful to choose the top-shelf helmets, even if they're extremely expensive. For some reason, on that day that I did get into an accident, I chose to wear my partner's half-face helmet. It could be a cruel twist of fate, or maybe a one in ten thousand moment, I'm not sure. But the fact remains that that one lapse of my judgement brought me a big problem. I'll make sure NEVER to use open-face helmets again!

And you could be right, I may have misjudged some of my actions that day. I may not admit it to myself either, but who knows? You're quite correct as well, the rear-ending part you mentioned was a big possibility on my mind. If I did slow/stop in time, I still couldn't trust the braking ability of the driver behind me. That thought is drilled into my brain everytime I ride or drive and I cringe everytime I think of it.
I've also thought about what other outcome I may have gotten into, and right now I am happier that my accident is a lot less worse than if someone rear-ended me. I take solace in that.

Thanks for your advice. I really appreciate it.
I ride for a living, this is what I do, I am a motorcycle courier in one of the worst places in the USA for unpredictable traffic, distracted drivers, unlicensed/uneducated/unqualified drivers, etc...., I think that most who have driven in the Los Angeles/ Orange County area will know what I am talking about.
I have also trained many riders for the company I used to work for, I believe I am qualified to have an opinion on matters such as this.
Based on your closing post, give yourself a "pat on the back", You just moved up to the next grade and you will now take your street-riding-survival skills to the next level. Self awareness, and personal responsibility are the cornerstones to improvement in almost any endeavor.
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Old 12-15-2013, 06:42 AM   #21
keiPHadventure OP
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@GETTHUMPER2: Thanks for that, Thumper! I've always believed people learn something new everyday, and my accident was a very large lesson to be added to my experiences and safety awareness level. I know L.A. is one of the worst places to drive, my family spent enough time there to just shrug and laugh the traffic conditions off and say it's not far from what we get here. Keep yourself safe too, brother! There's a whole lot of other people out there who still need your wisdom!
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Old 12-15-2013, 02:26 PM   #22
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@LBS: Interesting comment about the NC700XA. All the ABS-equipped bikes I've ridden have been BMWs, and they all frequently exhibited the symptoms described by the OP. This made perfect sense to me -- when braking hard the rear wheel is supporting minimal weight, and even a slight bump will cause it lose traction; since brakes are being applied, the wheel with no traction immediately slow, triggering the ABS to release the front. I wonder how the Honda figures this out. Will it do a stoppie (serious question)?

To the OP: a better suspension helps to avoid triggering the ABS under braking, since it helps the rear wheel stay on the ground.
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Old 12-15-2013, 03:22 PM   #23
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@LBS: Interesting comment about the NC700XA. All the ABS-equipped bikes I've ridden have been BMWs, and they all frequently exhibited the symptoms described by the OP. This made perfect sense to me -- when braking hard the rear wheel is supporting minimal weight, and even a slight bump will cause it lose traction; since brakes are being applied, the wheel with no traction immediately slow, triggering the ABS to release the front. I wonder how the Honda figures this out. Will it do a stoppie (serious question)?

To the OP: a better suspension helps to avoid triggering the ABS under braking, since it helps the rear wheel stay on the ground.
Good point there, Lujo. I think that's one of the complicated parts of motorcycle ABS. How were your ABS-equipped BMW's? Did you find a way to work around those issues? I haven't read up enough on my bike if it has linked ABS. And on the road, I practically never use the rear brakes to slow myself down, so I want to clear that out if the BMW has linked ABS/braking.

I'm a bit hesitant to fiddle with the suspension settings for now, since it's a dual-purpose bike I might get it wrong and compromise the off-road handling... Just saying, though. I'm not that good at setting-up suspensions yet as well.
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Old 12-15-2013, 04:36 PM   #24
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Maybe some need a refresher on ABS and what it does and doesn't do. ABS allows you to apply maximum braking and yet still maintain the ability to steer the bike or car, no matter what the road surface ( excluding dirt where you might want the rear to slide out some ). In other words you won't lock up the brakes and slide out or high side.

So in other words if you mash on the brakes as hard as you can, ABS is going to save your butt if the surface is less than ideal. Can you stop faster with out ABS, maybe but depends on traction for the tires and the skill level of the rider.

As others have noted if you don't want the ABS to work, disable the system ( remove the fuse etc ).
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Old 12-15-2013, 04:48 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keiPHadventure View Post
Good point there, Lujo. I think that's one of the complicated parts of motorcycle ABS. How were your ABS-equipped BMW's? Did you find a way to work around those issues? I haven't read up enough on my bike if it has linked ABS. And on the road, I practically never use the rear brakes to slow myself down, so I want to clear that out if the BMW has linked ABS/braking.
On a few uncomfortable occasions ABS extended stopping distances beyond what they would've been otherwise; I've just started giving myself more room for braking. I haven't noticed a significant difference in how ABS behaved in these ways based on whether brakes were linked (e.g., '04 R1150GS) or not ('08 F800ST).

Interesting point about not using the rear brake: then, if the rear wheel lost traction, it would presumably be rotating faster than the front, since the front would continue slowing; I think it would be difficult for an ABS system *not* to interpret this as a loss of traction in the front due to braking too hard.
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Old 12-16-2013, 06:54 AM   #26
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@cycleman2: ["So in other words if you mash on the brakes as hard as you can, ABS is going to save your butt if the surface is less than ideal. Can you stop faster with out ABS, maybe but depends on traction for the tires and the skill level of the rider."]

Yes, you do have a clear point of activating the ABS when you mash the brake lever, but I think I can safely say that in dry conditions and that specific moment before I crashed, I did feel that I was confident enough to brake much better than the ABS... I don't want to sound cocky, everything is relative of course, so maybe you know what I mean. And by the way, I WAS looking for a way to disable the ABS. I only got the answer the evening before I crashed the bike. Sad.

@Lujo: Yes, it could be a clear-cut decision for the rear brake's sensor to activate the ABS if they're at all linked in that scenario. I'd like to keep looking around for the answers but I'm already selling the bike... Maybe I'll just share the info with the new owner by then...
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Old 12-16-2013, 07:41 AM   #27
atomicalex
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I find the ABS on my 2004 F650GS single to be a bit annoying - I know exactly the feeling you are talking about when you hit that bump and bang! no brakes. It's soooooooooooooooooooooo damned annoying.

My gut feeling on these setups is that BMW is not differentiating between the track setup and the road setup - everyone is getting the S1000RR dry track programming. Which won't work well off the track. That would be programmed to allow rear wheel spin (low F/R differential), and in real riding, we need the opposite - the front to be moving faster than the back to some degree.

The F and R bikes would benefit from multiple ABS programs - let one be the dominant, but allow switching to "ABS lite" before switching completely off.

One thing for sure - I'll keep the annoying ABS on the F over the combined brake garbage on the CBR. Good FSM is that a mess. Works, but holy hell is it mushy.
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:08 AM   #28
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I find the ABS on my 2004 F650GS single to be a bit annoying - I know exactly the feeling you are talking about when you hit that bump and bang! no brakes. It's soooooooooooooooooooooo damned annoying.

My gut feeling on these setups is that BMW is not differentiating between the track setup and the road setup - everyone is getting the S1000RR dry track programming. Which won't work well off the track. That would be programmed to allow rear wheel spin (low F/R differential), and in real riding, we need the opposite - the front to be moving faster than the back to some degree.

The F and R bikes would benefit from multiple ABS programs - let one be the dominant, but allow switching to "ABS lite" before switching completely off.

One thing for sure - I'll keep the annoying ABS on the F over the combined brake garbage on the CBR. Good FSM is that a mess. Works, but holy hell is it mushy.
S1000RR and F650GS single from -04 have both two wheels. And that's about all they have in common. The RR has a state of the art Race-ABS+TC system.
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Old 12-16-2013, 10:24 PM   #29
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abs + high speed braking + rumble strips = trouble.

the rumble strips seem to fool the abs into thinking that something abnormal is happening with the traction when it compares front vs rear wheel speeds. So , when you brake hard with an ABS bike over rumble strips , there is like on-off-on-off feeling with the brakes and this spills over into your front fork diving at intervals in tandem with the on-off braking.

can be very unnerving.

but having said that , am not sure that under the same circumstances (but without ABS) you could have stopped sooner.

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Old 12-17-2013, 12:18 AM   #30
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abs + high speed braking + rumble strips = trouble.

the rumble strips seem to fool the abs into thinking that something abnormal is happening with the traction when it compares front vs rear wheel speeds. So , when you brake hard with an ABS bike over rumble strips , there is like on-off-on-off feeling with the brakes and this spills over into your front fork diving at intervals in tandem with the on-off braking.

can be very unnerving.
You΄re not totally wrong, but you ain΄t completely right either.

ABS is not one specific system, it is an abbreviation used for several versions (and generations) of anti-lock brake systems. All of them do not work the same way.

If my memory still serves me well, BMW K100 year model 1986 was the first motorcycle fitted with ABS (and I΄ve actually ridden one just a few years ago, as I was curious to know how those first-generation systems worked – have to keep in mind it was an old bike, but in a word, its ABS was horrible!)

I΄m sure that if you tried the old K100, and braked hard while going over bumps, and then hopped on a current S1000RR and did the same thing, the difference in ABS activation, and resulting stopping power, would be night and day.

And you don΄t even have to have an S1000RR to compare to, just a “basic” ABS on a modern budget bike will be light years ahead, even though not as good as the RR (which has a very fast ABS modulation cycle, and also a gyroscope, that will warn, if the rear end is rising dangerously high, this means that the brakes can be used more aggressively in a situation like this. Today΄s ΄normal΄ ABS systems, that only get front and rear wheel speed data and do not know the exact position that the motorcycle is in, cannot do the same).
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