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Old 12-23-2013, 07:23 AM   #76
Emoto
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Originally Posted by IB1 View Post
I know, but this indicates there can be some problems. In a bike where this is worse this could lead to problems. If I would have thought tis was a problem on mine I would have long changed the front tire (23000 km and counting on the front).
My take is that anything a bike does when operated improperly is irrelevant. I guarantee you if you go ride 10 used bikes and take your hands off the bars, 9 of them will start to wobble then slap.
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Old 12-23-2013, 07:57 AM   #77
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A thread on this subject is already well underway:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=942099
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Old 12-23-2013, 02:22 PM   #78
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While I don't have a dog in this fight, I do feel the need to comment after reading thru this and the other thread. First, I am not a BMW naysayer.....1200 GS in the garage and at least a dozen others before it have lived here, with never a problem. What I have not read here is just why do you think BMW felt the need to put a steering damper on the 14's ? To look cool ? To handle better ? To add more cost to the bike ? Or to possibly improve on what might be a flaw ? If they made no significant change to the geometry of the bike, why add the damper ? The explanation they gave in that one response was nothing more than corporate speak...at lot of words that said nothing. If nothing else, they ( BMW ) just put a ding into the re-sale value of the first generation bikes, by adding the damper to the generation 2 bikes. Without a good, viable and believable explanation, they leave the impression that they missed something on the initial launch. And 2 or 3 years down the road, when someone logs on and asks witch WC GS he should buy, we'll probably hear advisors here telling them to get the 2nd generation models because of blah, blah.
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Old 12-23-2013, 03:42 PM   #79
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I find it interesting how so many people are quick to point the finger... So I responded to the comments in the visordown article, as objectively as I could:

Firstly, RIP to a great personality, reporter and loving family man. No one wants these things to happen in our circles. And like any grieving family, KA’s wants answers. They are angry. Upset. They want someone to blame. They want closure. I would too. As it stands now, no one knows exactly what happened and it will likely remain this way indefinitely.

Almost unanimously, the responses here are quick to point the finger although none of us witnessed the accident. *If* a tank slapper was the cause of the accident there would most certainly be damage to the steering stops which inevitably would have been reported by this point by the public prosecutor based on the finds of the SA police who investigated the incident. Since this has not been reported, no manufacturer (BMW, Ducati, KTM, Honda etc) could be reasonably expected to admit liability for speculation or allegation of which there is no proof. *If* BMW were found to be negligent by the investigation you can bet it would have been splashed across international media circles like lightning. But people love to vilify the ‘big, bad corporation’ without any objectivity. A corporation with people like you and me who have exactly the same strong feelings about the incident. You can bet there are engineers and testers losing sleep about how their work resulted in someone’s death.

BMW claim their decision to fit a steering damper on 2014 models of the standard 1200 is to harmonise the production of the platform which now includes the new Adventure and RT models which were designed from the start to include the damper—exercising economies of scale or some such economics-speak. Everyone will of course have strong opinions on this claim but it is nevertheless nothing more than speculation to connect this to an issue that was experienced by a couple of reporters, yet strangely not reported in various forums by the 17,000 or so owners of this model.

KA had a reputation for being a sensible, experienced rider. But he was still a human being with the potential to make errors in judgement like any other person. Was this the case? Again, nobody knows. I don’t know how many of the people commenting here ride regularly off road... I have enjoyed doing this for years on heavy bikes, and despite my experience I still come off the bike from time to time—it’s an inevitable risk of the activity. And for any number of reasons... Misjudging a rut. A brief lapse of reading the trail surface. A small, unfortunately located rock mid corner.

So we are back to the beginning again. A person has died who shouldn’t have died and I wholeheartedly join in with everyone else who sends their best thoughts to his grieving and heartbroken family. I hope they find closure somehow. But perhaps the reason nothing more has come from this incident, is because there is nothing more to come. Sometimes accidents happen to good people.
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Old 12-23-2013, 04:45 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by duffs
So we are back to the beginning again. A person has died who shouldn’t have died and I wholeheartedly join in with everyone else who sends their best thoughts to his grieving and heartbroken family. I hope they find closure somehow. But perhaps the reason nothing more has come from this incident, is because there is nothing more to come. Sometimes accidents happen to good people.
Correct and well said, IMHO! Also, I think people who want to keep hammering on this have an agenda.
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Old 12-23-2013, 04:52 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by duffs View Post

If a tank slapper was the cause of the accident there would most certainly be damage to the steering stops .......

So we are back to the beginning again. A person has died who shouldn’t have died and I wholeheartedly join in with everyone else who sends their best thoughts to his grieving and heartbroken family. I hope they find closure somehow. But perhaps the reason nothing more has come from this incident, is because there is nothing more to come. Sometimes accidents happen to good people.
Duffs, nicely written sir. As for the damaged steering stops being the by-product of a tank slapper, they very well could have been damaged by the handlebars during the time at which the bike collided with the ground (if that were the case). No/yes? My point is, the steering stops could have been damaged by the bars after the fact, even if a tank slapper did or did not cause the incident to occur, so i think it's hard to assign cause due to such. As for the rest, i think it's tough to say what should be or shouldn't be as we're all taking risks in living our daily lives, but i do believe that accidents can happen to everyone.

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Old 12-23-2013, 05:18 PM   #82
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Duffs, nicely written sir. As for the damaged steering stops being the by-product of a tank slapper, they very well could have been damaged by the handlebars during the time at which the bike collided with the ground (if that were the case). No/yes? My point is, the steering stops could have been damaged by the bars after the fact, even if a tank slapper did or did not cause the incident to occur, so i think it's hard to assign cause due to such. As for the rest, i think it's tough to say what should be or shouldn't be as we're all taking risks in living our daily lives, but i do believe that accidents can happen to everyone.

Regards,
Thanks! I’ve never personally experienced a tank slapper on any bike despite doing some pretty boneheaded things in my time, as well as the occasional hooligan antic, but I have done some research on tank slappers (and viewed photos of the aftermath) which consistently shows damage to the stops on both sides, and in many cases damage/bending of other components... But in a straight forward fall, it would seem reasonable that the damage to the stops would be focussed on one side or the other (since the handlebars wouldn’t have snapped violently from side to side multiple times). Someone who specialises in accident investigation would of course be able to provide a more definitive answer.

I know a couple other reporters wrote about ‘unprovoked’ tank slappers in seemingly innocuous circumstances but as these didn’t result in disaster there is no information about any subsequent investigation so therefore it’s impossible to know what occurred to cause this. Could be any number of reasons relating to the rider, the bike or the riding surface. But if this was a regular (or indeed, not so regular) occurrence, these forums would have lit up like a christmas tree several times over by now!

I still remember clearly my most frightening motorbiking experience and that was on the Brussels ring road on my fully loaded F800GS. It was a very grey day with low contrast and I didn’t notice the ruts worn into the roadway from car tyres. As I was riding along a very slow right bend at the speed limit (80mph if I remember correctly) I felt the blood drain out of my face as I realised the bike was refusing to turn and I was watching myself inch closer and closer to the car in the next lane. A good hard tug on the handlebars sorted it in the end, but for a brief moment I nearly froze on the verge of panic. After years on bikes it’s remarkable that something as rudimentary as riding around a slight bend on a motorway can catch a person out.
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Old 12-23-2013, 05:42 PM   #83
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Thanks! I’ve never personally experienced a tank slapper on any bike despite doing some pretty boneheaded things in my time, as well as the occasional hooligan antic, but I have done some research on tank slappers (and viewed photos of the aftermath) which consistently shows damage to the stops on both sides, and in many cases damage/bending of other components... But in a straight forward fall, it would seem reasonable that the damage to the stops would be focussed on one side or the other (since the handlebars wouldn’t have snapped violently from side to side multiple times). Someone who specialises in accident investigation would of course be able to provide a more definitive answer.
Thank you....makes logical sense to me. It really does ultimately depend on the bike's action during and after the incident itself.

Be well,
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Old 12-23-2013, 08:22 PM   #84
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What about the fork crimp recall on the very early bikes. Any reason to think this could have been a factor in Mr. Ash's crash.
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Old 12-23-2013, 08:49 PM   #85
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While I don't have a dog in this fight, I do feel the need to comment after reading thru this and the other thread. First, I am not a BMW naysayer.....1200 GS in the garage and at least a dozen others before it have lived here, with never a problem. What I have not read here is just why do you think BMW felt the need to put a steering damper on the 14's ? To look cool ? To handle better ? To add more cost to the bike ? Or to possibly improve on what might be a flaw ? If they made no significant change to the geometry of the bike, why add the damper ? The explanation they gave in that one response was nothing more than corporate speak...at lot of words that said nothing. If nothing else, they ( BMW ) just put a ding into the re-sale value of the first generation bikes, by adding the damper to the generation 2 bikes. Without a good, viable and believable explanation, they leave the impression that they missed something on the initial launch. And 2 or 3 years down the road, when someone logs on and asks witch WC GS he should buy, we'll probably hear advisors here telling them to get the 2nd generation models because of blah, blah.
I go with your explanation because you make sense, someone higher up the page seems to have gotten carried away with the fact that a few beemer aficionados agree with him so he got the bloody dictionary out!
I bet he has blisters on his lilly white digits!!!
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Old 12-23-2013, 08:51 PM   #86
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I think it's a safe bet that BMW will never step up to the truth on this one.

Paul
You think?............BUT, they did 'fess up to this little problem that shows that the Teutonic Twins aren't really all that Uber-Reliable!
http://www.recalluk.com/recalls/vehi...call-2012.aspx





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Old 12-23-2013, 09:30 PM   #87
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I don't think I offered up an explanation as much as I posed a question.
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Old 12-23-2013, 11:17 PM   #88
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Never have seen so many defence attorneys working for free
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Old 12-24-2013, 04:13 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Gezerbike View Post
While I don't have a dog in this fight, I do feel the need to comment after reading thru this and the other thread. First, I am not a BMW naysayer.....1200 GS in the garage and at least a dozen others before it have lived here, with never a problem. What I have not read here is just why do you think BMW felt the need to put a steering damper on the 14's ?
snip.
If I were in their shoes, adding a damper is exactly what I would have done for a very simple reason. First and foremost would be the idea of "take no chances with customer's lives" if/since an obvious cause can't/couldn't be found. With so few known instances, finding an engineering cause, if there is one, will take time and experience - something you don't have on a first year model.

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Never have seen so many defence attorneys working for free
Perhaps it is more a case of Occam's razor or lex parsimoniae.
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Old 12-24-2013, 04:17 AM   #90
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first thing : how many people commenting on this have actually ridden a GSW ?

second thing : how many GSW owners have ACTUALLY suffered tankslappers ?

third thing : how do you know that Ash suffered a tank slapper ?

.
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