ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Bikes > Old's Cool
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-13-2014, 08:32 AM   #166
Lucky 7 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Lucky 7's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Denver
Oddometer: 120
So here's a question for you guys:

Thanks to Pete Roper's rebuild guide, I have a good idea of what needs threadlocker, what needs moly paste, and which gaskets should get sealer. He recommends Loctite 517 for the gasket sealer, but I'm not finding it readily available.

Is there another Loctite sealer that I should look to, or can I just go with some silicone gasket sealer instead? It goes without saying that I'd like to do this right the first time and save myself a second rebuild. Also, I'd REALLY like to keep any oil out of the bell housing and clutch. Having ridden it with a fouled clutch, I can attest that it was unpleasant at best.
Lucky 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2014, 07:43 PM   #167
MZRider
Neo-Luddite
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: Western MD
Oddometer: 588
I don't use Loctite anywhere as a gasket sealer or threadlocker.

I use Permatex 300 in three locations. The first is on the rear main bearing flange, the second is the lower third of the timing cover (the upper two thirds is greased) and the third is the distributor gasket.

Base and head gaskets go on dry.

Sump and rocker cover gaskets get greased.

The cam plug is sealed with JB Weld.

The lower two bolts of the rear main bearing flange I seal with with Hondabond. I also use Hondabond as a low strength thread locker on all of the other main bearing flange bolts (front and rear) along with DIN 137 wave washers replacing the original locking plates.

If the clutch was oil fouled, that was likely due to leaking clutch pushrod seals. The stack of six o-rings as recommended in Guzziology is what I use there. I can send you some of those if needed.
__________________
Charlie
http://www.AntietamClassicCycle.com
'69 Moto Guzzi 750 Ambassador,
'77 Yamaha XT500, '91 ATK 604
'94 MZ Silver Star, '96 CCM 350
MZRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2014, 09:00 PM   #168
Lucky 7 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Lucky 7's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Denver
Oddometer: 120
Thanks guys, much obliged.

And Charlie, you were already kind enough to send me the o-rings! Some permatex, new oring stack, and sealed off breather lines...my new clutch SHOULD be staying dry, but here's hoping. :)
Lucky 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2014, 06:33 AM   #169
MZRider
Neo-Luddite
 
Joined: Oct 2007
Location: Western MD
Oddometer: 588
Here's a very helpful tutorial on assembling a Guzzi engine:

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbend..._roy_smith.htm
__________________
Charlie
http://www.AntietamClassicCycle.com
'69 Moto Guzzi 750 Ambassador,
'77 Yamaha XT500, '91 ATK 604
'94 MZ Silver Star, '96 CCM 350
MZRider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2014, 10:36 AM   #170
Lucky 7 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Lucky 7's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Denver
Oddometer: 120
Thanks man, I haven't seen that one before. There are some helpful hints in there regarding timing that I'll need (along with the rest of it). Timing gives me cold sweats. This would be easy if I could just throw it all back together...but timing is the fly in the ointment...

I'm sure proper timing doesn't matter that much, right?

I picked up my moly assembly paste and some permatex yesterday. With a little bit of cleanup, I should be ready to start building next week. I'm really happy to be moving forward on it again, I really hate letting a project languish.

As a side note, I'm sure my wife will be happy for it to be finished. While I've had engine parts out and about in the shop, I put a moratorium on woodwork to keep the sawdust infiltration to a barest minimum. Once I have the powerplant/tranny sealed up, I can get to some of those furniture projects she has in mind.
Lucky 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 09:01 AM   #171
Lucky 7 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Lucky 7's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Denver
Oddometer: 120
Back in the saddle!

With my engine parts back in from the machine shop, I was able to take a few afternoons to start assembling the engine.

First things first. The Gilardonis go dark:

 photo IMG_0557_zpscd29cf89.jpg


That's about 10 coats of DupliColor engine Enamel. The finish came out quite nicely, and I think it will be plenty durable. If it becomes necessary, touch ups will be easy thanks to the low luster finish.

Then it was time for final prep on the block. This little crack was going to be a problem.

 photo IMG_0558_zps22fc84a0.jpg


After a thorough cleaning, JB Weld covers it nicely. To be safe, I used a touch of silicone on the threads of that oil sump screw as well. No point in risking leaks.

 photo IMG_0559_zps2347920d.jpg


That done, I cleaned up the oil pump and got it installed along with the front main bearing. Oil feed dowel goes at 12 o'clock, check, check...

 photo IMG_0560_zpsb6f2ffe1.jpg


The cam gets slobbered with Moly paste:

 photo IMG_0561_zps07ea6579.jpg


As do the front and rear bearing surfaces:

 photo IMG_0562_zps5029950c.jpg
 photo IMG_0563_zpse86aac9a.jpg


It took a bit of searching on the Googlebots, but I went with Honda's moly assembly paste. It was at the local dealer and seems to be of proper molybdenum percentage. Pete Roper's rebuild guide has largely been my bible, but the paste he uses wasn't readily available. The Honda stuff was in stock 10 minutes from my house. Perfect!

 photo IMG_0566_zps45b13669.jpg


The cam is installed:

 photo IMG_0564_zps29cf8f8d.jpg


As is the front collar:

 photo IMG_0565_zpsd5730d2d.jpg


I've been using the torque specs from thisoldtractor (found here), but whenever listed I'm cross checking them with the service manual. So far, and unsurprisingly, they've matched, but it can't hurt to double check.


With the front squared away for now, it's time to get the crank installed. Some more moly paste goes on. This photo was prematurely taken, but I've been trying to make sure that every surface shined by friction gets a liberal coating of assembly paste.

 photo IMG_0569_zps3eec1b7b.jpg


Before the crank could go in, the block needed some clearance to allow space for the pulley extension of the crank. A few 2x4s did the job:

 photo IMG_0570_zps368c5491.jpg
Lucky 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 09:49 AM   #172
Lucky 7 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Lucky 7's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Denver
Oddometer: 120
The crank drops in and the weight of the engine doubles:




The new seal went into the rear main without much difficulty. The rear main went in with oil feed dowel at 12 o'clock. I pushed it in as far as I could, then a few long bolts went in to stabilize its location. Apparently you can tear the seal if you're not careful, so I set the bearing down so that the seal was just above the crank journal, then (with plenty assembly paste) I took care to pull the crank back upwards to slip it back through the seal. That done, I could draw the main bearing the rest of the way down, never allowing the crank to drop back out of the seal. Done!




Connecting rods go in place, proper orientation and torque ensured. Oil feed up on the left and down on the right.




Careful examination of the Gilardoni paperwork (you read Italian, right?) and the rings went back on in their proper order and alignment. The top ring especially takes a close eye to ensure it's correct top/bottom, but after some peering I was certain I had it right. The gap in each ring went to 120 degrees from the last and the whole assembly dropped into the cylinder.




The plan was to get the piston started in the cylinder and then slide the whole assembly down the bolts until the conrod and piston lined up. Halfway through this procedure I realized that there was more to do before the cylinder could drop on. Duh...

Cam followers are important. And yes, that's blood on the gasket surface there. I'll get that off before I drop the gasket on...




Then the gasket drops on, followed by the orings on the two short posts.




And NOW it's ready for the cylinder/piston. Plenty of assembly paste on all associated parts and a careful examination and re-examination to make sure that the wrist pin and clips are properly seated. I find myself checking, double checking, and triple checking before anything gets it's finally positioning. Care during this phase strikes me as paramount.




There's one installed piston and cylinder! Brand spankin' new and ready for another 60,000 miles.




The left side follows shortly. I failed to mention this before, but I've also been trying hard to make sure that all the parts go back in the same place. These guys look and measure exactly the same, but I figure it can't hurt:




The Gilardoni specific head gaskets drop on with the oil passage matched up:




Then the heads drop on. This thing is starting to look like an engine...and get heavy like one too. Syri dog surveys the neighborhood from the comfort of her re-appropriated parts rug.




I installed the two short stud bolts on the heads (not to any torque), but left the rest unfinished for ease of crank/cam turning. Timing gears go in place matched up with their marks.

Lucky 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 10:04 AM   #173
Twotaildog
Old Poop
 
Twotaildog's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2002
Location: NE, high on the banks of the Missouri River valley
Oddometer: 1,009


It's a beautiful thing!


.
__________________
1969 BMW R60US - The youngest of my "daily riders."
1964 Triumph TR6 - 50 year ISDT Tribute.
1916 Indian Powerplus - The old bike.
Dirt bikes and other stuff.
...sweet dreams and fine machines in pieces on the ground...
Twotaildog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 10:15 AM   #174
Lucky 7 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Lucky 7's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Denver
Oddometer: 120
Oil breather tubes go in. I used Permatex on the big tube (top right) due to some of the reports of leakage from that gasket. Leaks into the bell housing are the mortal enemy of the clutch, as I found out from the initial test rides.

 photo IMG_0589_zpsd1180f92.jpg


Before I went any further, I decided to drop the valve covers temporarily into place to keep the valves sealed against dust. Before they went on, I did a little hand paint on the letters. Love it.

 photo IMG_0592_zpsaed2977b.jpg


I'm going to leave the fin guard text in its 'vintage' state. I sort of liked the faded, spotty red.

I'm starting to get some proof on concept on the color scheme. I'm really digging this look, I can't wait to see it in the bike.

 photo IMG_0600_zps96923088.jpg


Now it's time for the clutch. New parts on the left, veterans on the right. That's new Stucchi clutch plates, new springs, and a new intermediate plate.

 photo IMG_0604_zpsf997fa29.jpg


The flywheel is first, torqued up with the help of a temporary starter cog and the immobilizer tool.

 photo IMG_0605_zps5f52017f.jpg


I had scrubbed and re-scrubbed the flywheel thoroughly, but the threads still felt a little crusty, probably thanks to the soup of oil, dirt, and clutch dust that had been accumulating in the bell housing. A quick run with the tap and they're all nice and smooth.

 photo IMG_0607_zpsf58d9442.jpg


Once again, the time had come for creativity in tool application. For some reason, going into this I was thinking I could just compress the clutch using some long bolts until it came close enough for the stock length bolts to bite. Of course, I wasn't thinking about the need to line up the intermediate plate with the teeth on the flywheel. Crapsack.

A pipe clamp and some hand clamps set to reverse, all of it lined up to a rafter, took care of the problem in short order. A few good squeezes on the hand clamps and the pressure plate dropped down far enough to allow the intermediate plate to be lined up.

 photo IMG_0608_zps29f0834f.jpg


I almost set the whole gimble up without the starter cog in place, but that wouldn't have gotten me very far once compressed with a immovable pipe clamp in the way. I threw it on top and off to the side to allow me space to line up the intermediate plate.

 photo IMG_0610_zpsc4d979f9.jpg


With everything compressed, lined up, and seated, the starter cog gets bolted in place

 photo IMG_0611_zps174e43dd.jpg


Clutch installed, as well as the rest of the oil sump.

 photo IMG_0612_zpsbb3c7375.jpg


Although the friction plates are very closely aligned, I realized afterward that it probably would have been smart to use the spline to align everything and then set the compression gimble on top of that, ensuring that it all stayed in alignment. Alas, I'll need to mess with that again at some point. I'm hopeful that it's close enough to allow the spline in, but if not I'll figure something out. Worst case scenario I take it apart and reinstall it, which wouldn't be the end of the world.
Lucky 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 10:25 AM   #175
Lucky 7 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Lucky 7's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Denver
Oddometer: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by danedg View Post
I'm missing the part where you lightly oiled all contact surfaces with motor oil before assembly.
I'm extremely concerned about your use of Moly 60 as an assembly lube as such.
It's slippery, but it's not motor oil. It's spline lube...

Hmmm, well your concern gives rise to a concern of my own. The Honda paste is badged as an assembly paste which "creates a long lasting film for all sliding parts".

I went with it on the recommendation from Pete Roper, who apparently uses moly paste and only moly paste as his assembly lube. For that reason alone, I'm hopeful that I made the right choice. He's done a lot more of these than I have, but what do I know? Now you have me worried. I'll look into it.
Lucky 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 10:40 AM   #176
Lucky 7 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Lucky 7's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Denver
Oddometer: 120
Yeah, so I've been reading. Priming the oil pump seems to be a key component. As I understood from the Roper rebuild guide, that's what the moly paste is for, to protect everything before the oil gets there.

I just spent some time combing for info on moly assembly paste and found quite a few positive results, including this from a Honda mechanic:

Moly 60 is an assembly paste, intended to provide lubrication of a rebuilt engine until oil is pumped there after the engine has been started. It is not intended for long term lubrication.

I think it will serve dutifully until the oil system pressurizes, but just to make sure, I may take some of the pre-prime measures listed on thisoldtractor to ensure that the oil arrives as soon as possible.

Thanks for bringing it into question. As GI Joe taught me, knowing is half the battle.

Lucky 7 screwed with this post 03-05-2014 at 10:50 AM
Lucky 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 10:50 AM   #177
Lucky 7 OP
Gnarly Adventurer
 
Lucky 7's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2011
Location: Denver
Oddometer: 120
Another long awaited piece falls into place as my parts finally come back from paint. While the time frame was ridiculously overshot, I was relieved to find that the end result really is beautiful. He did a great job.

 photo IMG_0613_zps16725561.jpg

 photo IMG_0614_zpsae90025a.jpg

 photo IMG_0615_zpsa30cd0c4.jpg

 photo IMG_0616_zps7a3d2686.jpg

 photo IMG_0617_zpsb56582c1.jpg


It's not apparent in these photos (sorry, they're not great), but that's the Audi Glacier White Pearl on the tank and headlight can. I wanted something with a bit of metallic depth to it, but nothing too bass boat. In the sun it really looks beautiful. Just a little sparkle.

I'm really happy with it. For the price and the quality of the end product, I'm willing to forgive the turn-around time. It should look amazing when assembled. As you can imagine, having everything back in final finish really has me excited to pull it back together. Soon enough, soon enough...
Lucky 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 10:59 AM   #178
Twotaildog
Old Poop
 
Twotaildog's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2002
Location: NE, high on the banks of the Missouri River valley
Oddometer: 1,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky 7 View Post
...
 photo IMG_0616_zps7a3d2686.jpg


It's not apparent in these photos (sorry, they're not great), but that's the Audi Glacier White Pearl on the tank and headlight can. I wanted something with a bit of metallic depth to it, but nothing too bass boat. In the sun it really looks beautiful. Just a little sparkle.

I'm really happy with it. For the price and the quality of the end product, I'm willing to forgive the turn-around time. It should look amazing when assembled. As you can imagine, having everything back in final finish really has me excited to pull it back together. Soon enough, soon enough...
Good Choice.


.
__________________
1969 BMW R60US - The youngest of my "daily riders."
1964 Triumph TR6 - 50 year ISDT Tribute.
1916 Indian Powerplus - The old bike.
Dirt bikes and other stuff.
...sweet dreams and fine machines in pieces on the ground...
Twotaildog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 11:33 AM   #179
davebeef
Buffoon
 
davebeef's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2013
Location: Bonnie Scotland
Oddometer: 185
[QUOTE=danedg;23620619]I'm missing the part where you lightly oiled all contact surfaces with motor oil before assembly.
I'm extremely concerned about your use of Moly 60 as an assembly lube as such.
It's slippery, but it's not motor oil. It's spline lube...it's grease that can plug your oil passages upon startup.[/QUOTE

mmm. I also would be wary of using anything approaching that consistency during a rebuild. i have always just used lashings of oil that i intend to use for running the bike when built and have never had any problems. I also fully prime the system prior to running. Hope I am wrong but would I would suggest to proceed warily. I am of course not a qualified mechanic.
rgds,
db.
__________________
'70 Moto Guzzi Ambassador
'74 Triumph T150V
'81 BMW R100
'81 MZ 250/1 '91 Jawa 638
'90 Moto Guzzi 1000S
davebeef is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 11:47 AM   #180
blaine.hale
Beastly Adventurer
 
blaine.hale's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2009
Location: Atlanta, Ga
Oddometer: 2,753
That molly paste is incredibly concerning on the surfaces you used it on. I'd further specify that molly paste goes in non-oiled spaces like a spline or an axle. The "sliding" places may be a bit misleading. I can only see that gunking up and clogging oil passages when oil is introduced to the engine. I've always and forever just put oil on things like the crank and con rods etc because, well, that's where oil goes when it runs. Mixing lubricants ain't always the best.
I hope, for your sake, it turns out alright.
__________________
1974 BMW R90 /6
1968 Bultaco Matador MK3
1973 BMW R75 /5 Toaster LWB
1969 Bultaco Bandido MK2
2013 Husqvarna Terra TR650
blaine.hale is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 06:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014