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Old 12-30-2013, 12:14 PM   #136
nick949eldo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danedg View Post
On my motor, it was determined that the guides were worn out (past their tolerance), and that both exhaust valves were toasted as well.
Standard replacement guides and 2 new exhaust valves were ordered thru MG Cycle. There was never any thought of "oversizing" anything.
The guides are "press fit", otherwise referred to as an "interference" fit.
The guides are frozen and the head gets heated and the guides are inserted into the alloy head. When an ambient temp is reached, the guides are "set" in the head. Old School all the way. Worked just fine for the last 100 years.
The guides are then matched to the valves "as they exist", and the reground seats as well. Standard practice.

I'd be very hesitant to continue using the machine shop that seems to be reinventing the wheel with your bike.
You could stick the heads in a box to my machinist, and they will be returned in better shape than when they left the factory. No muss, no fuss, no guessing and no worry.
PM me if your interested.
Same here on my Eldorado. New guides and valves from Mgcycle. Local machine shop. No issues. And they really make a difference!

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Old 12-30-2013, 01:02 PM   #137
Lucky 7 OP
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danedg View Post
On my motor, it was determined that the guides were worn out (past their tolerance), and that both exhaust valves were toasted as well.
Standard replacement guides and 2 new exhaust valves were ordered thru MG Cycle. There was never any thought of "oversizing" anything.
The guides are "press fit", otherwise referred to as an "interference" fit.
The guides are frozen and the head gets heated and the guides are inserted into the alloy head. When an ambient temp is reached, the guides are "set" in the head. Old School all the way. Worked just fine for the last 100 years.
The guides are then matched to the valves "as they exist", and the reground seats as well. Standard practice.

I'd be very hesitant to continue using the machine shop that seems to be reinventing the wheel with your bike.
You could stick the heads in a box to my machinist, and they will be returned in better shape than when they left the factory. No muss, no fuss, no guessing and no worry.
PM me if your interested.

To be fair, this isn't really reinventing the wheel though, is it? Granted, my knowledge of this whole topic is limited and fairly fresh, but on older engines isn't it normal for the guide sleeve in the head to become worn after numerous guide removal/reinstallation cycles? It follows that this is why they make oversized guides, to account for this expansion in the head sleeve over spec.

Like I said, I'm hesitant about doing it simply because I don't think it's necessary. I don't think he doesn't know what he's doing, he just thinks oversized is the way to go for the heads because of their age. Based on the wear through the rest of the bike, I just don't think very many guides have been installed/removed on this bike. I guess it's a hunch, but I really feel like the stock guides would work fine. I guess I could just order stockers and upsize if it's absolutely necessary.

It's not a problem to just tell him how I want it done, I just have a bottleneck at my own lack of in-depth understanding.

Thanks for the tip on the hot/cold installation, Dan. I'll make sure to mention that at the shop. I've been using that method on the various bearings throughout the bike and I really like the unintrusive nature of it. Seems so much less likely to cause damage.
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Old 12-30-2013, 04:03 PM   #138
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Also make sure you look into the installation and removal of the guides. Some of the guides in guzzis require the guide to be pressed one direction, a circlip is removed and the guide is pressed out in the other direction. Guzziology has the details. I mention it because, iirc, you can ruin a set of heads pressing out the guides in the usual manner.

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Old 12-30-2013, 08:01 PM   #139
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The first set of Guzzis heads I had done, I supplied my machinist with 1st oversized o.d. guides and he had to machine them down so they would even be close to fitting. Since then (at least two dozen pair of heads) all I've supplied are standard o.d. guides and we've never had a problem.
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Old 12-30-2013, 08:33 PM   #140
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Awesome, thanks for that Charlie. I tend to play the numbers, so standard size it is.

Thanks for the tip photomd. I just looked that up in the Chilton manual to understand what you were getting at and they detail the process enough that I can effectively relay it to the machine shop.

Which leads me to another question: in the parts catalogue the exhaust guide looked to be tapered on both ends while intake tapers only on the cylinder side. The guides sold by MG Cycle say they're to be used for both. I looked back through my photos and confirmed that my current guides are, in fact different from intake to exhaust. Why the difference in guide style? I couldn't find it specifically addressed in the chilton manual, any of Pete Roper's guides, or anywhere else. It has me curious.

Thanks again guys!
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:41 PM   #141
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Parts are in!




I didn't get much done on the bike through the holidays, but I did manage to get my parts ordered...that is, those that weren't given to me as presents for Christmas.

I now have the new Gilardoni jug/piston kits, a new clutch, new spline, new MAC slashback mufflers, new valve guides, and a shiny new generator cover since the bike didn't have one on it at purchase. All I have to do now is put it all back together. That sounds easy, right?

Actually, I need the head shop to do their work, THEN I can put it back together. I installed the new pistons on the con rods, then both sides went back on to the crankshaft for balancing. Even though it's essentially just a dry run assembly, I got everything installed properly on the crank journal (at least as I understand it). Oil passage up for the left rod and down for the right, both pistons installed with arrows pointing forward. Right side installed to the front, left is aft. Proper torque...best practices, I remind myself, best practices...




I dropped off the guides and shaft at the machine shop today. I made sure to go over the installation method with them, and he was quick to assure me that they always do the hot head/cold guide installation. I went with standard size quides and new clips, the rest is in their hands. I think it'll be fine...mostly I'm just excited to get everything back and start the rebuild.

All my sheet metal is still at paint. It was supposed to be done the first week in December, I guess it's a good thing that I'm in no immediate need of it. It's funny, I've yet to have any of these oldboy shops meet their own timelines. Chrome was weeks late, powdercoat was a month late, and paint is going to be 2 months late by the time I actually see it. I doesn't really bother me, I know how those guys are, but it still makes me smile and shake my head. Five years running my business and I haven't missed one deadline. We're spawned from different schools of thought it seems.

Anyway, that's my update for now. Hopefully my parts are back from machining in the next couple weeks and then I can get to reassembly. Oddly enough, I'm expecting the reassembly process to go much quicker than the dis-assembly...much less cataloging, photo taking, and staring in abject confusion I suspect.

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Old 02-12-2014, 05:33 PM   #142
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HOLEEEE CHRIST!! I actually got my engine parts back!

Lately, my once a week calls to the machine shop and the painter have started to feel suspiciously like work. Unsurprisingly, once I turn something over to the experts (he says, resisting a strong impulse to frame the word in quotes), I always start to feel stressed. Managing service providers sucks.

Me in the garage working = zen

Me managing vendors =


Okay, okay...at least I actually have something I can start working on again. I've basically been down for two months at the hands of outside help. No more!

The valve seats are all resurfaced, new guides installed, and springs shimmed to spec. Purty!




Also, the the freshly balanced crankshaft awaits installation.





The one thing I have been able to work on while I waited on parts was my gasket seats. The old gaskets had formed a near molecular bond with the castings and took every bit of my patience to safely remove. My fingernails were powerless against the old gaskets, and my caveman brain kept eyeballing the screwdriver...so near at hand...so efficiently destructive...

Here's what I was up against. The rear main bearing and cylinder surfaces were the worst, but all of the oil delivery junctions took some work too:




Thankfully the patient section of my brain (all 5% of it) triumphed and eventually it all came off without a scratch. The system involved many coats of aircraft stripper (thanks for that tip, Charlie. It proved invaluable)




Then a carefully broken strip of 1x stock (read: cracked over the knee)




Many coats of stripper and much scratching later, I have a clean block and associated parts.




I'll probably spray them down with wheel cleaner once more and give them one last hosing before I get started on the rebuild. I'll admit, it was a task I wasn't terribly excited for, but I'm really happy to finally have all the gunk off of the parts.

I have a few impending deadlines for work, but I think I should be able to get started on the rebuild shortly, something I've really been getting excited for. I expect much manual reading will be in my immediate future...with this long wait, I think a bit of a refresher will help me out.
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:32 AM   #143
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So here's a question for you guys:

Thanks to Pete Roper's rebuild guide, I have a good idea of what needs threadlocker, what needs moly paste, and which gaskets should get sealer. He recommends Loctite 517 for the gasket sealer, but I'm not finding it readily available.

Is there another Loctite sealer that I should look to, or can I just go with some silicone gasket sealer instead? It goes without saying that I'd like to do this right the first time and save myself a second rebuild. Also, I'd REALLY like to keep any oil out of the bell housing and clutch. Having ridden it with a fouled clutch, I can attest that it was unpleasant at best.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:43 PM   #144
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I don't use Loctite anywhere as a gasket sealer or threadlocker.

I use Permatex 300 in three locations. The first is on the rear main bearing flange, the second is the lower third of the timing cover (the upper two thirds is greased) and the third is the distributor gasket.

Base and head gaskets go on dry.

Sump and rocker cover gaskets get greased.

The cam plug is sealed with JB Weld.

The lower two bolts of the rear main bearing flange I seal with with Hondabond. I also use Hondabond as a low strength thread locker on all of the other main bearing flange bolts (front and rear) along with DIN 137 wave washers replacing the original locking plates.

If the clutch was oil fouled, that was likely due to leaking clutch pushrod seals. The stack of six o-rings as recommended in Guzziology is what I use there. I can send you some of those if needed.
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:00 PM   #145
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Thanks guys, much obliged.

And Charlie, you were already kind enough to send me the o-rings! Some permatex, new oring stack, and sealed off breather lines...my new clutch SHOULD be staying dry, but here's hoping. :)
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Old 02-14-2014, 07:33 AM   #146
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Here's a very helpful tutorial on assembling a Guzzi engine:

http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbend..._roy_smith.htm
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Old 02-14-2014, 11:36 AM   #147
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Thanks man, I haven't seen that one before. There are some helpful hints in there regarding timing that I'll need (along with the rest of it). Timing gives me cold sweats. This would be easy if I could just throw it all back together...but timing is the fly in the ointment...

I'm sure proper timing doesn't matter that much, right?

I picked up my moly assembly paste and some permatex yesterday. With a little bit of cleanup, I should be ready to start building next week. I'm really happy to be moving forward on it again, I really hate letting a project languish.

As a side note, I'm sure my wife will be happy for it to be finished. While I've had engine parts out and about in the shop, I put a moratorium on woodwork to keep the sawdust infiltration to a barest minimum. Once I have the powerplant/tranny sealed up, I can get to some of those furniture projects she has in mind.
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:01 AM   #148
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Back in the saddle!

With my engine parts back in from the machine shop, I was able to take a few afternoons to start assembling the engine.

First things first. The Gilardonis go dark:

 photo IMG_0557_zpscd29cf89.jpg


That's about 10 coats of DupliColor engine Enamel. The finish came out quite nicely, and I think it will be plenty durable. If it becomes necessary, touch ups will be easy thanks to the low luster finish.

Then it was time for final prep on the block. This little crack was going to be a problem.

 photo IMG_0558_zps22fc84a0.jpg


After a thorough cleaning, JB Weld covers it nicely. To be safe, I used a touch of silicone on the threads of that oil sump screw as well. No point in risking leaks.

 photo IMG_0559_zps2347920d.jpg


That done, I cleaned up the oil pump and got it installed along with the front main bearing. Oil feed dowel goes at 12 o'clock, check, check...

 photo IMG_0560_zpsb6f2ffe1.jpg


The cam gets slobbered with Moly paste:

 photo IMG_0561_zps07ea6579.jpg


As do the front and rear bearing surfaces:

 photo IMG_0562_zps5029950c.jpg
 photo IMG_0563_zpse86aac9a.jpg


It took a bit of searching on the Googlebots, but I went with Honda's moly assembly paste. It was at the local dealer and seems to be of proper molybdenum percentage. Pete Roper's rebuild guide has largely been my bible, but the paste he uses wasn't readily available. The Honda stuff was in stock 10 minutes from my house. Perfect!

 photo IMG_0566_zps45b13669.jpg


The cam is installed:

 photo IMG_0564_zps29cf8f8d.jpg


As is the front collar:

 photo IMG_0565_zpsd5730d2d.jpg


I've been using the torque specs from thisoldtractor (found here), but whenever listed I'm cross checking them with the service manual. So far, and unsurprisingly, they've matched, but it can't hurt to double check.


With the front squared away for now, it's time to get the crank installed. Some more moly paste goes on. This photo was prematurely taken, but I've been trying to make sure that every surface shined by friction gets a liberal coating of assembly paste.

 photo IMG_0569_zps3eec1b7b.jpg


Before the crank could go in, the block needed some clearance to allow space for the pulley extension of the crank. A few 2x4s did the job:

 photo IMG_0570_zps368c5491.jpg
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Old 03-05-2014, 10:49 AM   #149
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The crank drops in and the weight of the engine doubles:




The new seal went into the rear main without much difficulty. The rear main went in with oil feed dowel at 12 o'clock. I pushed it in as far as I could, then a few long bolts went in to stabilize its location. Apparently you can tear the seal if you're not careful, so I set the bearing down so that the seal was just above the crank journal, then (with plenty assembly paste) I took care to pull the crank back upwards to slip it back through the seal. That done, I could draw the main bearing the rest of the way down, never allowing the crank to drop back out of the seal. Done!




Connecting rods go in place, proper orientation and torque ensured. Oil feed up on the left and down on the right.




Careful examination of the Gilardoni paperwork (you read Italian, right?) and the rings went back on in their proper order and alignment. The top ring especially takes a close eye to ensure it's correct top/bottom, but after some peering I was certain I had it right. The gap in each ring went to 120 degrees from the last and the whole assembly dropped into the cylinder.




The plan was to get the piston started in the cylinder and then slide the whole assembly down the bolts until the conrod and piston lined up. Halfway through this procedure I realized that there was more to do before the cylinder could drop on. Duh...

Cam followers are important. And yes, that's blood on the gasket surface there. I'll get that off before I drop the gasket on...




Then the gasket drops on, followed by the orings on the two short posts.




And NOW it's ready for the cylinder/piston. Plenty of assembly paste on all associated parts and a careful examination and re-examination to make sure that the wrist pin and clips are properly seated. I find myself checking, double checking, and triple checking before anything gets it's finally positioning. Care during this phase strikes me as paramount.




There's one installed piston and cylinder! Brand spankin' new and ready for another 60,000 miles.




The left side follows shortly. I failed to mention this before, but I've also been trying hard to make sure that all the parts go back in the same place. These guys look and measure exactly the same, but I figure it can't hurt:




The Gilardoni specific head gaskets drop on with the oil passage matched up:




Then the heads drop on. This thing is starting to look like an engine...and get heavy like one too. Syri dog surveys the neighborhood from the comfort of her re-appropriated parts rug.




I installed the two short stud bolts on the heads (not to any torque), but left the rest unfinished for ease of crank/cam turning. Timing gears go in place matched up with their marks.

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Old 03-05-2014, 11:04 AM   #150
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It's a beautiful thing!


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