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Old 04-19-2014, 12:24 PM   #676
dirty_sanchez
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Originally Posted by RFVC600R View Post
171% full strength?? That's awesome. I think I'm going to make a magnetic plug for my sump.
Yeah, it's kinda interesting how different fluids and chemical exposures can effect full strength of adhesives.
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Old 04-19-2014, 12:57 PM   #677
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Cy-Thanks for asking for my input on that thread. Even bigger thanks for all of the battery research on your Battery Thread-something that is so far above my level of understanding I'm overwelmed.

Now on to the question on the Rear Brake Caliper bolts for the big BMW's. For shits, I looked up the front and rear brake caliper bolt torque spec for the 690 and it is 18.4lb/ft or 25nm or 221in/lb. So this torque spec must be in the ballpark.

The question after looking over the thread and the bickering you referenced is that will adding a blue or red threadlocker increase or decrease the torque needed to adequately secure that brake caliper. -The question was phrased incorrectly- read on.

As I have mentioned earlier in this thread most of us don't have tools at our disposal to measure clamp load, but most of us have a repeatable device known as a torque wrench.

Torque required to achieve a certain clamp load on dry non-lubricated threads will be considerably greater than the same clamp load on lubricated threads. Thread galling and deformation is also more likely to rear it's ugly head on dry threads as well.

For reference, most anti-seizes have a "K Factor" or "Lubricity Factor" of roughly 0.11 to 0.16. Blue threadlocker liquids and sticks have a lubricity factor of 30 weight motor oil, which has a lubricity or K factor of roughly 0.13.

Clamp load will be greater (your parts will be held together much more strongly) for the same torque value on lubricated threads than they ever will be if they were assembled with non-lubricated threads.

What does this mean? Use a blue threadlocker (I suggest 243) on those NEW cleaned and degreased brake caliper bolts and torque them down to the recommended 18ft/lbs. with a calibrated clicker-style torque wrench and be done with it. By lubricating the threads we'll have a ball park increase in clamp load of no more than 10%...but this is just an educated guess.

Are we clear as mud now?

Dirty
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Old 04-19-2014, 01:54 PM   #678
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Originally Posted by dirty_sanchez View Post
Cy-Thanks for asking for my input on that thread. Even bigger thanks for all of the battery research on your Battery Thread-something that is so far above my level of understanding I'm overwelmed.

Now on to the question on the Rear Brake Caliper bolts for the big BMW's. For shits, I looked up the front and rear brake caliper bolt torque spec for the 690 and it is 18.4lb/ft or 25nm or 221in/lb. So this torque spec must be in the ballpark.

The question after looking over the thread and the bickering you referenced is that will adding a blue or red threadlocker increase or decrease the torque needed to adequately secure that brake caliper. -The question was phrased incorrectly- read on.

As I have mentioned earlier in this thread most of us don't have tools at our disposal to measure clamp load, but most of us have a repeatable device known as a torque wrench.

Torque required to achieve a certain clamp load on dry non-lubricated threads will be considerably greater than the same clamp load on lubricated threads. Thread galling and deformation is also more likely to rear it's ugly head on dry threads as well.

For reference, most anti-seizes have a "K Factor" or "Lubricity Factor" of roughly 0.11 to 0.16. Blue threadlocker liquids and sticks have a lubricity factor of 30 weight motor oil, which has a lubricity or K factor of roughly 0.13.

Clamp load will be greater (your parts will be held together much more strongly) for the same torque value on lubricated threads than they ever will be if they were assembled with non-lubricated threads.

What does this mean? Use a blue threadlocker (I suggest 243) on those NEW cleaned and degreased brake caliper bolts and torque them down to the recommended 18ft/lbs. with a calibrated clicker-style torque wrench and be done with it. By lubricating the threads we'll have a ball park increase in clamp load of no more than 10%...but this is just an educated guess.

Are we clear as mud now?

Dirty
thanks for your feedback .. it's obvious that you are the go to person on Adv for loctite technical questions ...

Justice has been saying basically the same thing in busted caliper thread. now you've verified it.
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Old 04-19-2014, 02:19 PM   #679
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Just for a reality check....10% of the stated 18ft/lbs is 1.8ft/lbs. I wonder who among us has a torque wrench sensitive enough or operates it well enough for this to matter.
jj
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Old 04-19-2014, 03:36 PM   #680
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Originally Posted by just jeff View Post
Just for a reality check....10% of the stated 18ft/lbs is 1.8ft/lbs. I wonder who among us has a torque wrench sensitive enough or operates it well enough for this to matter.
jj
Ding Ding Ding!!

It's not like we're building a spaceship destined for a mission to Mars that's dependant on uber critical torque specs.

Dirty
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Old 04-19-2014, 03:52 PM   #681
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Thanks for the in-depth and complete research there Dirty! PM inbound shortly for more specific part number and availability information
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Old 04-19-2014, 04:02 PM   #682
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Careful which magnets you choose

Quote:
Originally Posted by RFVC600R View Post
171% full strength?? That's awesome. I think I'm going to make a magnetic plug for my sump.
Not to go off thread, but the rare earth magnets can be made of different materials and most will loose a significant portion of their strength if exposed to typical crankcase temperatures.

K&J Magnetics has a good blog post explaining the thermal properties of various types of super magnets.

This is where I'm sourcing the magnets I am using.
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Old 04-19-2014, 04:11 PM   #683
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Originally Posted by just jeff View Post
Just for a reality check....10% of the stated 18ft/lbs is 1.8ft/lbs. I wonder who among us has a torque wrench sensitive enough or operates it well enough for this to matter.
jj
You're not going to do it with a 100 ft/lb wrench, which is what I suspect is the problem behind all of the torque wrench disasters we see. It's just not accurate at either end of its range. I have nice small beam type wrenches that are plenty accurate at that figure.
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Old 04-19-2014, 04:58 PM   #684
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Originally Posted by ttpete View Post
You're not going to do it with a 100 ft/lb wrench, which is what I suspect is the problem behind all of the torque wrench disasters we see. It's just not accurate at either end of its range. I have nice small beam type wrenches that are plenty accurate at that figure.
18 lbs? Why not just use a quarter inch drive and not try to kill it?

I'll likely strip out every bolt I turn tomorrow, now that I got worse about it
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Old 04-19-2014, 05:28 PM   #685
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18 lbs? Why not just use a quarter inch drive and not try to kill it?

I'll likely strip out every bolt I turn tomorrow, now that I got worse about it
If you're doing it in in/lbs, the figure is 216.
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Old 04-19-2014, 05:32 PM   #686
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bonified tool nut here ... beam torque wrenches are typically more accurate than click types. part of problem is folks don't unwind their wrenches, so spring takes a set. always unwind after use, unless you've got an internal beam clicker.

here's pics of different types of torque wrenches, including several 1/4 in drive in lb. one beam 0-120 in lb, one screwdriver style 2-36 in lb and clicker style 10-150in lb.

Snap-on electronic torque meter to calibrate other wrenches and to document precise settings. with 1/4in, 3/8in and 1/2in torque sensors. which are sitting on Snap-on 1/2 dr beam 0-200ft lbs
note the in oz setting on Snap-on electrotorque meter




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Old 04-19-2014, 06:25 PM   #687
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Very cool but not many home mechanics out there spend the thousands of dollars represented in that collection ON THEIR BIKES let alone their tools!!
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Old 04-20-2014, 02:14 AM   #688
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Hey Dirty

Mate brilliant info and I have learnt a LOT of stuff here. It's kind of like going to a Loctite seminar but in my own time. Happy. So many questions have been answered. MrsR kept looking over my shoulder for the last days 'Are you STILL reading that? humph'. I am now a loctite nerd, loving it.

Thank you. Oh and be sure your boss gets to see your effort to help us at this site.
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Old 04-20-2014, 07:12 AM   #689
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seems on R1200GS rear caliper bolts factory spec is a super low 18ft lb .. which IMHO is a fuck up by BMW. no one else no one else in the world that I'm aware of uses 18ft lb torque that low to hold together a mission critical part like brake calipers.
I'm very careful with BMW torque specs, as I have learned the hard way. Back in 2004, I was working on a customer's brand new M3. I didn't have a manual for the car, but having done the simple task I was doing many times on many other cars, wasn't worried about it. Set the torque wrench to what I had used for the same diameter and pitch fastener in the same place doing the same job on my 1985 Toyota, and snapped the dang thing off. Had to buy a new $90 part (fastener was a pressed-in stud, not available separately) because BMW saved $0.03 on a crappy fastener. Later found a manual and saw the BMW torque spec on that fastener is less than half of the Toyota spec. On all the other cars I've worked on, the Toyota is typical. So you really have to follow the manual with German stuff.

Just to benchmark, I pulled up the manual for a K8-K9 gixxer. Its rear caliper has three different fasteners doing three different things, and these are the recommended torques:

33 N⋅m (3.3 kgf-m, 24.0 lb-ft)
18 N⋅m (1.8 kgf-m, 13.0 lb-ft)
16 N⋅m (1.6 kgf-m, 11.5 lb-ft)
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Old 04-20-2014, 08:50 AM   #690
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I'm very careful with BMW torque specs, as I have learned the hard way. Back in 2004, I was working on a customer's brand new M3. I didn't have a manual for the car, but having done the simple task I was doing many times on many other cars, wasn't worried about it. Set the torque wrench to what I had used for the same diameter and pitch fastener in the same place doing the same job on my 1985 Toyota, and snapped the dang thing off. Had to buy a new $90 part (fastener was a pressed-in stud, not available separately) because BMW saved $0.03 on a crappy fastener. Later found a manual and saw the BMW torque spec on that fastener is less than half of the Toyota spec. On all the other cars I've worked on, the Toyota is typical. So you really have to follow the manual with German stuff.

Just to benchmark, I pulled up the manual for a K8-K9 gixxer. Its rear caliper has three different fasteners doing three different things, and these are the recommended torques:

33 N⋅m (3.3 kgf-m, 24.0 lb-ft)
18 N⋅m (1.8 kgf-m, 13.0 lb-ft)
16 N⋅m (1.6 kgf-m, 11.5 lb-ft)
turns out the low 18ft lb torque value was NOT the problem for R1200GS. BMW by leaving off requirement of Loctite 243 with such low torque values was the problem.

seems KTM 690 caliper bolts are spec'd at 25 Nm or 18ft lb .. but KTM requires Loctite 243 be used at those low torque values.

_cy_ screwed with this post 04-20-2014 at 11:35 AM
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