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Old 07-09-2014, 09:28 PM   #3031
Chromer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kropotkin View Post
F1 is very close to a spec series. Le Mans is the only real 4-wheel prototype series left.
Even Le Mans has some very restrictive technical regs.

For GP bikes, there is still a huge underexplored world in funny front ends. As a design, forks suck, but they're a very well-known quantity. Everyone is afraid to be the first to try something else though.

You want innovation and cutting edge, start following the electric world. The fastest electric car was just two seconds behind the overall winner at Pike's Peak this year (and 40 seconds faster than last year's top electric time). Overall winner next year? The FIM e-bike series seems to have fizzled out for now, but it'll be back...
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Old 07-09-2014, 10:32 PM   #3032
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I think it would be bad. MotoGP needs to be the top, like F1. Mfgs need to develop technology. Like the TZ 750. I don't like the idea of a spec series deciding world champion.
The TZ750 made the F1, and preceeding F750, motorcycle classes a default spec series. So, not sure how that plays with your preceeding sentance about developing technology.
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Old 07-10-2014, 08:06 AM   #3033
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Old 07-10-2014, 09:01 AM   #3034
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Originally Posted by stk0308 View Post
The TZ750 made the F1, and preceeding F750, motorcycle classes a default spec series. So, not sure how that plays with your preceeding sentance about developing technology.
I know my post didn't make much sense. Must have been in a fog. No, not pui.

I'd like to see innovation and different bikes. I'd say MotoGP does that now with the factory bikes. Love to see Suzuki and Kawa get involved.

I thought the TZ750 was a successful gamble for Yamaha.
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Old 07-10-2014, 09:49 AM   #3035
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You may hav been thinking of the TZ500 and RGB500. Not to mention the YZR500 and Honda's various, and variously successful, attempts to compete with them.

The interesting thing there was the period of radical engine innovation with no change to the relevant rules. We haven't seen much of that for a while.

But it's probably because the traditional engine problem - making enough power reliably - is essentially solved. What innovation remains is much less visible. Pneumatic valve springs, for example.

It would be good if someone could make a non-telescopic front end work. Bit I'm not holding my breath.

Edit: of course restricting the entries to four-stroke engines has meant no-one has done any work on big direct-injection two-strokes. That might have been interesting.
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Old 07-10-2014, 10:34 AM   #3036
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Originally Posted by Mike Yanagita View Post
With Pedrosa even with Rossi on points, it seems a stretch to say one has "adapted to the tires" more than the other.
This is valid but doesnt take into account the difference in bikes. Rossi is arguably on the lesser machine, as suggested by most. Closing the gap on the top three suggests that he is doing something better than the others ('cept Marc). Acclimating to the tires might just be it.
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Old 07-10-2014, 11:21 AM   #3037
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moronic View Post
The interesting thing there was the period of radical engine innovation with no change to the relevant rules. We haven't seen much of that for a while.

But it's probably because the traditional engine problem - making enough power reliably - is essentially solved. What innovation remains is much less visible. Pneumatic valve springs, for example.

It would be good if someone could make a non-telescopic front end work. Bit I'm not holding my breath.

Edit: of course restricting the entries to four-stroke engines has meant no-one has done any work on big direct-injection two-strokes. That might have been interesting.
Chicken or egg? There have been various attempts at unconventional engine and front end configurations that have inevitably led us to where we are. If any manufacturer had seen real commercial possibilities in a two stroke future, I am sure they would have pushed for rules in that favor. Let's remember there has been, and no doubt continues to be, much experimentation in the labs of the big manufacturers on fuel type, aspiration, transmission and chassis development. Honda in particular doesn't seem to have any problem throwing a million bucks at any idea that might lead in a new direction.

I think its reasonable to assume that as the current designs on the grid converge, you are approaching the most efficient way to scoot around a race track. Ask Ducati, BMW.

Are there any restrictions on chassis design other than the ban on active suspension?
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Old 07-10-2014, 11:27 AM   #3038
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:01 PM   #3039
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Exactly.
One reason there are only tele-forks is that is what data exists for suspension tuning. As an example of how all this works is those brakes of Buell's. Got Brembo or Nissan brakes and you got lots of options for rotors, calipers, master cylinders and pads.
Erik's not so much. You get what he's got. And you're creating your own data on the fly. Tends to swill cubic money, while viewing the pointy end of the event as it comes blowing past.
A very good way to make a small fortune out of a large one as the saying goes.
Two engine configuration options, narrow V-4 or Inline-4. The Wider V-4 seems to have wandered off the plot a good bit.
MotoCzysz, tired the steepest curve approach, different everything. Basically a blackhole of development as far as the appetite for cubic money is concerned. Now it is electric with conventional sliding fork and rear shock.

Quote:
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*cough* Erik Buell *cough*
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:07 PM   #3040
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Basically a blackhole of development ...
But a gushing fountain of self-promotion.
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:14 PM   #3041
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Originally Posted by Mr Head View Post
Exactly.
One reason there are only tele-forks is that is what data exists for suspension tuning. As an example of how all this works is those brakes of Buell's. Got Brembo or Nissan brakes and you got lots of options for rotors, calipers, master cylinders and pads.
Erik's not so much. You get what he's got. And you're creating your own data on the fly. Tends to swill cubic money, while viewing the pointy end of the event as it comes blowing past.
A very good way to make a small fortune out of a large one as the saying goes.
Two engine configuration options, narrow V-4 or Inline-4. The Wider V-4 seems to have wandered off the plot a good bit.
MotoCzysz, tired the steepest curve approach, different everything. Basically a blackhole of development as far as the appetite for cubic money is concerned. Now it is electric with conventional sliding fork and rear shock.
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But a gushing fountain of self-promotion.
I watched the special on his bikes. I thought the engine design was genius, and was going to be a real game changer. But I guess when you blow through millions only making two prototypes and no real spares to speak of, even the greatest of ideas will go no where.
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:28 PM   #3042
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Originally Posted by Mike Yanagita View Post
But a gushing fountain of self-promotion.
Err, not always.

Buell... I'd have bought one in the past, but now? Not a chance. Proving your approach is unbelievably crap doesn't sell bikes.
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Old 07-10-2014, 12:32 PM   #3043
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Err, not always.
If he'd started out with his electric effort, that would have been beyond reproach, instead of his dance of the 700 veils about entering a MotoGP bike.
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Old 07-10-2014, 01:32 PM   #3044
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Originally Posted by 5th-Elefant View Post
Err, not always.

Buell... I'd have bought one in the past, but now? Not a chance. Proving your approach is unbelievably crap doesn't sell bikes.
The bike is better than ever, as a street machine. Their racing effort leaves a lot to be desired, but what does that have to do with my Sunday ride?
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Old 07-10-2014, 01:40 PM   #3045
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Any time there is a constant (in the case of MotoGP - tires), all development will center around that constant. The spec tire serves as a limiting factor for development. Ducati was successful when they had freedom in tire development, and there was competition between Michelin and Bridgestone. Once the spec tire was introduced, however, they were faced with the fact that their bike was different than everyone else's; since the spec tire was based on a common denominator paradigm, anything that stepped away from that common denominator, no matter how little, was punished for it. (I acknowledge that Ducati has other issues they have to address, like the weight and size of their engines, but when they had tire freedom, they could work around that).

Give how little the Ducatis vary from the norm, and yet how they are suffering for it, why would anyone in their right mind pursue development of a something like a Vyrus-based MotoGP bike?
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