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Old 08-26-2014, 10:17 PM   #526
Pecha72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlurr View Post
the bike stands up, same as with ABS

Next question.
errmmm.... no.

Next guess.
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Old 08-26-2014, 11:12 PM   #527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
And what happens, if you've got normal brakes, you corner at the limit, and grab a handful of brake?
Presumably you will be grabbing a handful of brake whilst cornering on the limit of traction because something unexpected has happened that requires an immediate and sudden change in your direction or speed like a deer appearing out of nowhere right into your path. It's unlikely but let's assume that you have reached the limit of traction on both tyres at the same time.

Without these electronic rider aids, the brakes will apply and the bike will slide and probably crash (lowside), most likely hitting the deer.

With ABS/MSC (assuming the system IS clever enough to recognise the bike is on the limit), the brakes will not apply and the bike will continue along it's current path and hit the deer

With ABS/MSC (assuming the system ISN'T clever enough to recognise the bike is on the limit), the brakes will apply and the bike will slide and probably crash (lowside), most likely hitting the deer.

How many of us would grab a handful under these conditions? Probably all of us.

Jon
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:20 AM   #528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny955 View Post
Presumably you will be grabbing a handful of brake whilst cornering on the limit of traction because something unexpected has happened that requires an immediate and sudden change in your direction or speed like a deer appearing out of nowhere right into your path. It's unlikely but let's assume that you have reached the limit of traction on both tyres at the same time.

Without these electronic rider aids, the brakes will apply and the bike will slide and probably crash (lowside), most likely hitting the deer.

With ABS/MSC (assuming the system IS clever enough to recognise the bike is on the limit), the brakes will not apply and the bike will continue along it's current path and hit the deer

With ABS/MSC (assuming the system ISN'T clever enough to recognise the bike is on the limit), the brakes will apply and the bike will slide and probably crash (lowside), most likely hitting the deer.

How many of us would grab a handful under these conditions? Probably all of us.

Jon
I think you have just come up with a scenario where you are at 100% traction on both tyres on a public road, with nothing to spare. Correct?

In that case you have nothing regardless. It's the 100% that is the problem.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:43 AM   #529
Pecha72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonny955 View Post
Presumably you will be grabbing a handful of brake whilst cornering on the limit of traction because something unexpected has happened that requires an immediate and sudden change in your direction or speed like a deer appearing out of nowhere right into your path. It's unlikely but let's assume that you have reached the limit of traction on both tyres at the same time.

Without these electronic rider aids, the brakes will apply and the bike will slide and probably crash (lowside), most likely hitting the deer.

With ABS/MSC (assuming the system IS clever enough to recognise the bike is on the limit), the brakes will not apply and the bike will continue along it's current path and hit the deer

With ABS/MSC (assuming the system ISN'T clever enough to recognise the bike is on the limit), the brakes will apply and the bike will slide and probably crash (lowside), most likely hitting the deer.

How many of us would grab a handful under these conditions? Probably all of us.
I think you are assuming way too much about MSC here. That is the cleverest braking system on motorcycles right now (or actually, as its name suggests, it is Stability Control).

And I have to say the whole ΄scenario΄, that we΄re talking about here, is just ridiculous. You ride into a corner using ALL of the lateral grip, that is available?? And you do this on the road, where for example a deer might jump right in front of you?? You admit, that grabbing the normal non-ABS front brake in this situation will instantly fold the front end (this most certainly will happen).... and THEN it is disappointing, if some system cannot get your ass out of that trouble?? First of all, I don΄t buy this using all lateral grip thing, because if you have any sanity between your ears, you always leave a bit in spare, at least on the road you do, because it΄s not a controlled environment. If your really using all lateral grip on the roads, all it takes is a tiny little speck of something not-so-grippy on the corner, and you hit the deck, even if you are not using brakes at all. That would be just stupidity in motion. Of course some may THINK that they are using all lateral grip, when in fact they΄re at about 7 or 8 tenths available.

Did you try a bike with MSC yet, BTW..?
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Old 08-27-2014, 05:05 AM   #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
And what happens, if you've got normal brakes, you corner at the limit, and grab a handful of brake?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlurr View Post
the bike stands up, same as with ABS

Next question.
So, just so that I have got this clear, are you saying that, with normal brakes, when "at the limit", and more forces are suddenly added as in "grab a handful of brake" that the bike will stand up ?
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Old 08-27-2014, 05:13 AM   #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlurr View Post
the bike stands up, same as with ABS

Next question.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlurr View Post
It can, all depends on the speed, angle, tires, temp, surface and suspension.

Maybe its about time you fucking learned about riding?
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Old 08-27-2014, 05:51 AM   #532
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Old 08-27-2014, 08:00 AM   #533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
You were very clear in that message about being "at the limit", what then happens if you then grab the brake is clear to any motorcyclist.

I am pretty much dead set on my next motorcycle having to have a system like the Bosch MSC on the KTMs. Even the most skilled rider will make a mistake or be surprised given enough miles (MotoGP anyone?). The one time I dropped my bike on my trip from SF to Argentina was exactly a situation where the MSC could have saved me. Any accident avoided when you're far away from home and help is worth it to me.

The problem I see right now is that the KTM 1190/R (and upcoming 1290) is the only game in town when it comes to this ABS system and it is unclear what the future of the 1190 will be. While speculation for now, I wish we could absolutely rule out that the 1190 will be discontinued after 2015. I am hoping (dreaming?) that the upcoming Africa Twin will have the leaning ABS to give us that middleweight adventure bike of our dreams :)
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Old 08-27-2014, 08:05 AM   #534
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If your riding an adventure bike to its "limits" on public roads, you have bigger problems than ABS you fucking knuckle heads.
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Old 08-27-2014, 09:03 AM   #535
Pecha72
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If your riding an adventure bike to its "limits" on public roads, you have bigger problems than ABS you fucking knuckle heads.
someone shares with you firsthand experience of a trip from US to Argentina, and you call him a 'fucking knucklehead'?? Nice work buddy.

So, lets hear about your trips of similar caliber..?
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Old 08-27-2014, 09:30 AM   #536
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Did you read my sig dipshit? not that it is relative anyhow.
Plenty of people who have ridden their entire lives who pretty much fuck their way along with blind luck. Apparently you are one of them.
Ah! Keyboard Virtual Balls. Only preteens nowadays do that. Used to be more common back in early Internet and BBS days. They people realized that a big mouth behind a monitor, is usually a p*ssy face2face. Not that you are such a case. No.

BTW I am sure you had a great time with your charm in those 22 countries.
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Old 08-27-2014, 10:54 AM   #537
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" The problem I see right now is that the KTM 1190/R (and upcoming 1290) is the only game in town when it comes to this ABS system "

MSC has to be built individually for each bike model, it uses advanced algorithms, and has to know the parameters of the vehicle exactly. Actually you cannot even put just any tyres of right size on an MSC bike, even tyre profiles have to match.

But the whole system is very new (though already works like a charm), and these are just a matter of more programming, in a few years we will find MSC on many more bike models, and it will be more flexible regarding tyres, etc. It is clearly the future of electronic aids.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:21 PM   #538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pecha72 View Post
" The problem I see right now is that the KTM 1190/R (and upcoming 1290) is the only game in town when it comes to this ABS system "

MSC has to be built individually for each bike model, it uses advanced algorithms, and has to know the parameters of the vehicle exactly. Actually you cannot even put just any tyres of right size on an MSC bike, even tyre profiles have to match.

But the whole system is very new (though already works like a charm), and these are just a matter of more programming, in a few years we will find MSC on many more bike models, and it will be more flexible regarding tyres, etc. It is clearly the future of electronic aids.
I guess we should count ourselves lucky that it's a couple adventure bikes that received this system first and you're right, in a few years, this discussion will be moot as every bike will be offered with this system. We just happen to be at the introductory phase right now.
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Old 08-28-2014, 01:46 AM   #539
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In June, a magazine here put together a major ADV bike comparo, there were 5 bikes (R1200GS ADV, 1190 Adventure R, Tiger Explorer XC, 1200 Crosstourer DCT, DL1000A) all equipped with different kinds of ABS+TC systems. Every bike was first put on identical Heidenau K60 tyres, and then ridden from Finland to the backroads of Karelia and Murmansk regions in Russia, and back.

The big Beemer GS ADV won the whole thing, but the only bike, that got a full 10 points for its brakes, was the KTM1190 Adventure R with MSC. They commented, that the system works absolutely great, even when you do panic braking on a bend, that has a lot of loose gravel on the surface – the bike just nods a little, and then it comes to a very controlled stop, and just simply fails to crash, every time. The MSC system controls braking on both front&back wheels as an entity, but if preferred, then ABS on the back wheel can also be switched off (but reading the story, it appers like they actually preferred to keep it on). In general, they thought that all other bikes, while unable to match the KTM, had very good brakes, too, and all ABS systems worked really well, even in less than perfect conditions.

Mind you, this was an unusually thorough test of over a week, +3000 miles, and a big portion of it was ridden off tarmac. The journos, who did this, were experienced riders, both on and off road. And the roads in that area in Russia are generally quite poor to downright challenging, where all these bikes were suffering mostly because of their mass.
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Old 08-28-2014, 06:50 AM   #540
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MSC has to be built individually for each bike model, it uses advanced algorithms, and has to know the parameters of the vehicle exactly. Actually you cannot even put just any tyres of right size on an MSC bike, even tyre profiles have to match.
Interesting and, yes, a clever system indeed. I thought initially that the MSC only monitored bike dynamic parameters (lean, velocity, lateral acceleration) and then made a calculation of how much traction remained for available for braking, but there must be more to it than that. Otherwise the system would only work under ideal paved road conditions. It has to figure out how much grip is available at the road surface (dry asphalt, wet asphalt, gravel, dirt, etc.). I'm guessing, but it probably uses tire slippage (via wheel speed sensors for longitudinal slippage, but also probably lateral slippage via an accelerometer) to modify the look-up tables the system accesses.
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