2000 R1150GS - looking for the leak. Chime in all experts!

Hello,
[Edit July 29, 2012: Hi. If you found your way here by the Search engine, Google or by reference from other inmates I am sorry to say that the site where I posted all my images has shut down (Apple's MobileMe). As such, all my images below are no longer available. I promise to one day find a new host (e.g. SmugMug) and re-link everything. One day. As it is summer here in Canada AND I am the proud Dad of my first kid I do not expect to get to this exercise right away. But, I promise I will. I did discuss with JonJen the possibility of uploading a PDF to the HOW however it is too large right now. I you need a copy I can email it to you but the file size is 11Mb due to the large images. Just send me an email as I have not had much time to get to the message board on this site. I will answer your email...but it may take a few days before I get back to you. Thanks.]


[Edit: I have added my step by step break down and reassembly procedure for this leak. It has grown to include: clutch slave, input shaft seal and maybe a new clutch. If you are interested in either helping with or learning from these subjects kindly read through this photo intensive post. When the boss is not looking at your computer of course. During this procedure I have asked other inmates for help. I am listing those links for reference at the start of this post.

Reference Links:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=686674

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=686804

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=349925

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=314290

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=691154



Original Post:
I need help and advice.
Also, I thank all who take the time to read and respond!

Below is a photo-intensive post illustrating my search for a fluid leak on the '00 R1150GS. Despite the leak I would never have thought there was even an issue the bike. It has been running superbly.

For reference, last week I posted this question and received some good feeback:
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=681522

Although the weather was perfect for riding I decided to start pulling the machine apart in an effort to determine the leaking. Not having done this before on an Oilhead (airheads previously) I want to take this in small steps before I get in too far over my head.

I don't mind taking stuff apart and do most regular service on my bike. However, I just don't want to get something apart and find out I should have done something before unbolting ex: locking the clutch, using the guide pins etc. And just where does one find an angle torque wrench?



As most of my gear is still in storage I started by borrowing a good friend's ramp. Then I got down to business with a nice beer from Québec. Yum, the start of summer.


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Off came the seat, tank, battery connections, skid plates, crash bars, exhaust and catalytic converter (why is that so heavy?). I'll skip those pics and get straight to the source of this silliness. The top right arrow points to the black gunk seeping from the clutch and engine case mating surfaces. This has been present since I got the bike 4 years ago. The bottom arrow points to the new leak that started up since the winter (last few months). It is mostly black from the road grime but does have a slight greenish-brown cast to it.


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The starter came off quite easily. Quite black encrusted and a touch of an oil residue.


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Looking up under the transmission toward the lower clutch case. Fresh leaking of something:

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A closer look at the above area:

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The following three pics are looking at and into the clutch area via the removed starter. In front of the clutch housing it seems dry but has collected some black "dust". To the bottom and rear you can see a collection of very oily, black gunk.






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I carefully inserted a flathead screwdriver into the opening and scraped up some of the black gunk. It is actually quite fibrous. Is this spent clutch material?

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Finally, here is a shot of the Clutch Slave cylinder. It seems to look ok. There is a very slight film or haze around the mating surface. See orange arrow. I check the master cylinder reservoir and the fluid is clear.


So, thanks again for making it through this post. I've got a ride in 2 weeks and need to assess the parts to order, any special tools, complexity etc.

Cheers,

g r a n t

<table border="0" cellpadding="5" width="650"><tr><td>That's from the input shaft seal on the gearbox.

If the leak was from the motor rear main seal the sling pattern would be closer to the nose of the starter housing.
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So, is this all I need? Seal #1 highlighted in yellow?

<BR>That's the gearbox input seal. Hey, is the backside of the motor case dry? Behind the flywheel I mean. You can look back there with a small mirror. I can't quite tell from the pictures.

Also, is the front side of the gearbox case dry?

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Hi. Just checked. The backside of the motorcase (behind flywheel) is mostly dry. There is a very slight black residue on the front in a few places.

The front side of the gearbox case is black, wet and oily. The bottom of the housing is also black, wet and oily. The clutch assy seems dry (I have not noticed clutch slippage). What it looks like is the leak originated at the gearbox side, the oil dripped/weeped down and across the inside bottom of the case. The oil started to weep up the inside face of the motor case (behind the flywheel).

I could see the outer case of the clutch splines and the input shaft splines. Both look shiny and new with out a drop of oil, dust, build-up etc.

Sorry, my camera optics cannot get in there. You can see some of the spotty black residue in places on the backside of the motorcase here:

<table border="0" cellpadding="5" width="650"><tr><td>Looks like you found it. "Shiny and new without a drop of dust buildup" can translate into a light oil flow onto a spinning shaft. Ever see how clean a scottoiler keeps a final drive chain with that tiny drip drip drip of oil?

Does the oil in the bellhousing have that sulfury gear oil smell? Either way I guess it's sort of academic at this point, since the gearbox will be in your lap soon and you'll be able to see for yourself whether the leak is coming from there.

Nice pictures. I see a input shaft seal R+R thread in the not to distant future.
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While my main concern is to get this cleaned up properly I also thought I should be documenting this properly. I've learned a lot from this forum and want to give back.

Any special tips for pulling the input shaft seal or just like any other? can you use a pick to pull them out if still on the shaft?

<table border="0" cellpadding="5" width="650"><tr><td>There are any number of ways. Punch or drill a small hole in the the metal carrier, thread in sheet metal screws and pull.

I usually use a small dia. (maybe 2-3mm) flat faced drift, or a fresh 'sacrificial' small flat blade screwdriver, and a hammer. Use the drift or driver to smoosh in the metal carrier in a few places around the diameter. That usually loosens the friction fit between the carrier and the seal bore.

I've used this before, it worked fine too.
http://www.northernautoparts.com/ProductModelDetail.cfm?ProductModelId=16114
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...shop:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wf&biw=1024&bih=579
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8A0tenCLGw

thanks Poolside.

g

<BR>Sure thing, Grant. YouTube is amazing! That's just how it works.

But let me clarify, I've used that tool to pull out shaft-in seals on other gearboxes. But I didn't use it on a BMW gearbox. There's probably a minimum diameter shaft seal that the Lisle tool will work on. Below that diameter you can still probably modify the 'hook' (read: file it down) to fit.

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That's a pretty nifty little tool there. Good luck with the work. I have the exact same bike - color and all. So, I will expect a full report. LOL

No need for any special seal puller tool on the gearbox input shaft seal. Just a 90 degree pick will remove it.

Looks like a neat little toy. I'll bet that would work on a site glass too.

When you have the gearbox out you might as well replace the input shaft rear seal and clutch slave. I know hurts to throw away parts that are still good. However think about how much it would hurt to have to go back in a a few thousand miles.
Also might as well pull the clutch and check it, all those fibers had to come from somewhere.

If the input shaft seal is leaking, hows the input shaft bearing??

If you are going to pull the trans might as well split the case and have a look/feel to see what the bearings are like.

$0.02

I'd follow up with a clutch disk inspection without a doubt - those fibers are very suspicious. Hate to crash the party, but don't I see an area of oil tracking at 6:00 o-clock under and behind the flywheel on the rear main side? There may be multiple leaks.

Bokrijder

Good observation. When I look in behind the flywheel with a flashlight I can see some "soot" in a few places and a bit of accumulation at the seam between the two engine case halves. This soot is dry. Very low down on the rear main side is a bit of moisture (oil) but this appears to be coming from the bottom of the bell housing and wicking up the existing soot, or clutch dust.
Yeah, it's not ruled out that there are a few leaks. Need more investigation

Grant,

Going to do the work yourself? This is a job which looks much more difficult than it really is. There is a very definite sequence of disassembly and a couple of important factors on reassembly, but if followed, no headaches.
If money is tight and the actuator cylinder looks good, I would let it go. I find them easy to change.
One suggestion regarding the cylinder cavity. You can drill a small drain hole, 1/8" or so, at 6:00 allowing any future leakage to drain (and show itself) rather than the oil filling the cavity and following the pushrod forward into the clutch.

Bokrijder

Steptoe is right, it doesn't take a special tool to remove the seal.

But be VERY careful not to scratch the shaft.

You might measure the installation depth of the old seal before removal if you are not going to use the BMW installation tool.

You can make your own installation tool from plastic pipe or the like. You don't absolutely need an installation tool, but it helps make sure the seal is square to the shaft and is at the right depth.

Rear main seals aren't a super-high failure rate item, but they do fail. If it were mine, I'd replace those too, and the clutch parts. I would probably replace the slave cylinder as well.

It's not an extremely hard job, but there is a fair bit of work. It is disappointing if you do all the work and need to repeat it soon after. DAMHIK.

Good luck and have fun!

What's the point of fannying around looking through tiny apertures with a flash light when you have to remove the box anyway.....

Pull the box off and all will be revealed.