Minimalist Touring Thread (250cc and under)

Mirrors,turnouts,and shoulders are the answer,I operate many large and varied types of machinery on 2 lane roads,and you just move over as often as needed and safe to do so,I drive my cars and motorcycles the same way,I often think people feel that if they are not part of the crowd screaming along trying to maintain their position something will happen,it drives my wife crazy when I let people pass.

I did a trip on my KLX250 of about 1400 miles on Interstates in Arizona and highways in Mexico where most of the traffic was doing 75-85 MPH...... I did watch my mirrors almost constantly. In USA, with multi lanes, no problems at all. In Mexico, on 2 lane with high speed traffic, I kept to right side and held a tight line. I was passed many times with oncoming traffic. Scary at first, but I realized no one wants to hit you...... I also wear a hi-viz jacket. 250s are the bike of choice in many countries, and drivers adapt.

I'd ride my 250 anywhere, except most of my riding buddies are on big bikes.

Not so fast.
There could be an obstruction in the shoulder, or the shoulder could be closed for construction, which is very common here (can be miles of Jersey Barriers at a time). That part is purely circumstantial, I think odds are that the shoulder would be clear, but it does up the risk some amount.
Even if the shoulder is clear, there are laws in eastern states (good or bad, it doesn't really matter), that you must move into the left lane when a vehicle is in the breakdown lane/shoulder on a highway. That would cause people trying to get around you to start slamming on their brakes and trying to move over as they passed by you, which increases the chances of causing an accident - again, maybe not for you, but for those around you.

I have seen many situations, most times while I was in a car, where a vehicle going far slower than the majority of traffic nearly caused an accident. Not that anyone here falls in this category, but many people who believe they are very safe and cautious drivers because they drive defensively have really only escaped accidents because offensive drivers purposely avoided them. Of course if you point this out to them they vehemently object. My point here is that much depends on your point of view, and the scope of what you include. Whatever you feel about your own safety traveling significantly slower than traffic, I would say emphatically that you are increasing the risk of an accident for those around you because you are forcing them to deal with a situation that they weren't expecting - again, I'm applying this to congested highways, not wide-open spaces. I'm not telling anyone what to do or how they should live, only pointing out something anyone may not be considering, and this is definitely dependent on your location. I can understand why most people on the east coast wouldn't feel comfortable on a small bike on the highway.

In my experience, there isn't any real problem with maintaining a slower speed than surrounding traffic as long as one has a shoulder to move off to on a majority of highways in the nation. I've ridden the eastern highways you mention and would simply avoid them.

Jeesh, didn't mean to start an argument in the small bike thread. Yes small bikes are great, blah blah blah, I think all Earthscape and I want to point out is that taking a bike that can do highway speeds only when ringing its neck is not as safe as a bike that can power out when in doubt. Powering out may only mean speeding up 10mph in some instances. Moving to the shoulder isn't always an option and how is that safe? Signs in northeast say to do so in emergencies only, not going the speed limit isn't an emergency. Staying off the highway all-together reinforces it isn't safe. Small bikes have their advantages but they aren't found on a freeway. Going 20mph slower than everyone is not as safe as keeping up with traffic, period, I'm not really sure why this is even an argument.

As to insurance rates, size of the engine and the paired insurance rate doesn't correlate to safety. There are way fewer claims on xt225's than gixxers because most people probably don't have collision on a bike under $3k (I know I don't), but sure as shit do for a 10k bike. Hell, knockiing over a sportbike at standstill can cause hundreds of dollars in damage but give an Xt more character. It's how you ride, not what you ride when it comes to safety.

I think it's good for us all to think of and be reminded about being safe,sharing ideas is what this is all about,motorcycles are dangerous and so a lite discussion is always like a refresher course.

I think this discussion is entirely relevant for this minimalist touring thread.

The Ninja 250 is certainly safe to ride on limited access highways, as demonstrated by long-distance commuter who posted earlier in this thread. However, I don't ride my 200cc, Zongshen 200GY-2 on interstate highways, or in densely populated, urban areas with reckless, speeding, automobile drivers. The Ninja 250 would be perfectly safe in those conditions, but riding my 200cc, dual sport bike would definitely put me at serious risk of injury. When riding small motorcycles, safety depends entirely on the particular bike, and the specific riding conditions.

Spud

^^^^^^agree

Back when I did the long distance freeway commuting thing, my Ninja 250 was fine for the job. I would not have used my current Zongshen 200 dualsport, the commute would have taken too long, regardless of any safety considerations.

Horses for courses. But for all my discretionary riding, I don't need the bigger bikes, as I don't ride those roads by choice.

However, I would not use the Ninja 250 or my ZX12R for a RTW trip if traveling 3rd world countries, but I would have no hesitation taking the same Zongshen 200 or even my Yamaha 125.

The 125 and 200 would make it through Europe and North America, as would the faster, bigger bikes. But the bigger bikes, including my old GS, would be impossible or at least very difficult and expensive to get across some the areas I have been traveling the last few years.
Yes, riders have been doing the RTW thing in big bikes for decades, but they are primarily sticking to the main routes which cater to big commercial vehicle traffic as well.

So for me, if I have to have just one bike, and that bike doesn't have to travel daily on freeways with fast, heavy traffic, then a small dualsport bike covers the broadest range of riding options.

Additionally, I think those posting how dangerous the urban freeways are for slow traffic are overstating things a bit.
I've driven in most of the bigger cities in the USA, as I used to travel nationally on a weekly basis, sometimes 2 and 3 cities in a week.
There is nearly always a vehicle running less than the 75 - 85 mph traffic flow, so adding in a bike running at 60 / 65 will not significantly add to the danger for other traffic.
Additionally, most freeways I have seen anywhere in the world have minimum speed limits, usually around the 45 to 55 mph mark. That's the legal requirement that all road users have to cater for no matter how fast they are traveling, and is the assumed safe slow speed.

Additionally, most of those fast flowing freeways are on the outskirts and usually there are good secondary roads in the area that provide alternative routes if necessary.
The inner city freeways where the alternative routes are much more of a pain, usually flow much slower, and a small bike can probably make faster progress than most other vehicles.

Obviously this isn't true in all cases, but for cities like Boston, New York, San Francisco, DC, and many others it works.

As for commuting on a small bike on fast freeways, BTDT. I used a Vespa P200E back in the 80s to commute 100 miles a day for 6 weeks while my K100RS was waiting for parts.
This was in South Africa, where many vehicles would be running over 100 mph on the same road. I used to hit over 125 mph every day when I was commuting on the KRS.

Again, riding a slow bike safely in these conditions just needs situational awareness and some reasonably aggressive riding. At times I rode in the breakdown lane, other times I slip streamed big trucks.

I also modified the route in places, avoiding the ring road (freeway) around Johannesburg and going directly through the city. The scooter was much faster in traffic than the big bbike, and combined with the shorter distance, that proved to be the fastest route.


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I've never found anywhere that there aren't at least a few semi's to follow as a blocker that are staying below 70. My PCX150 only tops out at 65 mph so I don't ride it on the super highway much but my CBR250 can top 90 easy and I ride it cross country and fully loaded all the time with no issues. Not to mention commuting 40 miles every day on the highway for 18,000 miles.

I do enjoy being able to have a discussion about such things where people don't get bent out of shape, it's one of the great things about most areas of this site, and this thread in particular.

Acceptable personal safety standards are very individual, and, as they should be, a most personal choice. For me, riding enjoyment decreases proportionately as situational control decreases. Said another way, I prefer my saftey to be in my hands as much as possible, and not left to someone else. Motorcycle accidents happen every day when a rider leaves their safety in the hands of someone else, and that person fails to act as expected. If my only option for avoiding an accident is to move to the breakdown lane, that's not enough for me to feel like my safety is enough in my own hands, especially at speeds and congenstion that mean almost certain death if that one option isn't enough. If anyone is comfortable on a congested highway 20 MPH slower than the rest of traffic, more power to them, I'll take a different route or a bigger bike. Of course, I'd rather take a different route and a smaller bike, enjoy the ride, smell the smells, see the sights, soak up the enjoyment.

In a comparison to what may have been done in the past, some things to note.
There is far more traffic now than decades ago.
Everone seems to be in more of a hurry than they used to be (work and home life are blurred and people are squeezed to the minimum on free time).
There are far more in-car distractions than there used to be, and people seem to be particularly fond of using electronic devices while on the highway.
And a biggie - a couple decades ago the speed limit on most of the eastern highways was 55. The speed limit is 65 now, and most traffic flows 75 to 80, but the small 200 - 250cc bikes have mostly not changed at all, with a few exceptions.
I remember riding in the open bed of a pickup 10 to 15 miles down the turnpike when I was a kid. It was perfectly acceptable then, everyone did it, no one minded or thought it was overly dangerous. If you try that today, you'll likely end up in jail. It is accepted that highways now are more dangerous than they were.

Situational awareness is important, it's pretty much everything, and it's what every rider should strive to achieve with the goal of not taking any other's actions for granted. But you can't look in your mirror 100% of the time, and if everyone is honest with themselves, there are times now and again where you didn't see something that you should have, even if there was no danger. The greater the difference between your speed and the surrounding traffic speed, the less situational awareness you will have, and the less time to react you will have. You simply can't keep track of what every car is doing where there are 2 lanes merging from the right, one merging from the left and an exit 1/2 mile ahead. I dislike dealing with that even in a car.

Maybe I'm overly cautious, maybe others aren't completely aware of the danger they are in, maybe a little of both. No matter the bike size though, I still prefer the smaller, slower roads.

Earthscape, much of that is commonsense. However I've seen a lot more accidents resulting from the converse situation, bigger bikes on small, tight roads.

I used to lead a lot of rides and organize the odd rally for a club that shall remain nameless, but was focused on a heavy 1000cc sport tourer.
After 5 bikes went down in 4 different incidents over the course of a year while following me on rides, I stopped organizing events.

We did everything by the book: planned meeting points for riders who got lost, preride safety talk, stressed the 'ride your own ride' and comfort zone thing, stopping at every route change to wait for slower riders, stopping at scenic spots or every 30 minutes to get the group back together and all the rest.

In nearly every case, one of the contributing factors was the bike being to big and/or powerful for the rider's skills and the road conditions.

In nearly every case, the rider would have been better matched to the Ninja 250, but none of them could conceive of riding such a small bike.

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Common sense to you, to me, to probably most of those reading this thread. Probably not common sense to those that choose their bike based on what image it gives them, or how they think it makes them compare to their riding friends. Probably not to the person driving on the highway who has no interest in motor vehicles other than a mechanism to get them to where they need to be, and barely sees a motorcycle when they're nearly on top it because they aren't expecting it to be there.

I do understand what you are saying about comparison of bigger bikes on smaller roads. Ego and image tend to get in the way for a lot of people. However, that's not a mechanical limitation of the bike; the bigger bikes will go as slow as the rider wants, and the rider is in control of their own safety as it applies to the bike's capabilities on the road at hand. The great thing about this thread, is that we're here because we know that ego and image is not what makes riding fun. Riding a large bike on a small road doesn't make me think twice, because I'm the one in control. Riding a small bike on the highway does make me think twice, because I'm trusting a lot more of my safety to others.

My point here is that, stated as simply as I can, when you ride a bike that can't keep up with traffic on a congested highway, you are putting more of your safety in the hands of others than you may realize or want to admit. So when the guy on the Harley looks at your 250 and says that it's too small to ride on the highway, what he might mean, if he has the awareness to understand what he means, is that he wouldn't be willing to accept the additional risk of riding a motorcycle that can't keep up with traffic on the highway (assuming that we're not talking about one of the 250s that is fast enough, in which case, he is probably just trying to defend an ego).

I'm not meaning to get anyone upset, only sharing my viewpoint and hoping you stay safe.

Thankfully we live in America and in most places you can choose to go 65 in a 75 zone. That is your choice, we are not your wife, you don't have to explain it to us. Lets not kid ourselves and make the statement that it is "safe". While there is an inherent risk every time you ride your bike, not being able to filter slowly at say 80mph in a 75 zone is def more risky. Also a big factor is where your 75 zone is located, the speed limit on most freeways in Houston, TX is 60-65, is it safe to go 60...no

I live in the mountains and there are quite a few of the little underpowered untagged scooters ( we call them "liquor cicles", because DUI offenders ride them) travelling on the 2 lane highways. They only go about 35 mph, and really struggle going uphill. I really hate seeing them because I know that they are in a dangerous situation. The highways are very curvy with many hills. Logging trucks, semi trucks, school buses, old retired tourists, farm equipment, etc. all share the same roads. I happily zip around on my XT225, which easily goes 70+mph, but there's No Way I'd ever think of riding a 35 mph Chinese scooter on the highway here. That's a bit too minimal for me.

Good point Glenn...there is a limit in my opinion.

I'm very new to riding in general but the 250 I have is about as small as I'd feel comfortable with.

My mother lives down your way and chuckled pretty hard when I first heard that term describing the bar hoppers. Amazing how many you see cruising around towns in NC.

While I agree that a small bike on a freeway appears fragile, people commute on scooters and bicycles in fast moving traffic all the time. I did it for years in Chicago. On a bicycle you are definitely 20 mph slower than most drivers, you are almost invisible and car doors in the parking lane have a tendency to open when you are very close...

As Gertrude Stein noted, "everything is so dangerous, that nothing is really frightening."

I live in the mountains of WNC around Robbinsville,NC for six months a year and almost all the motorcycle accidents I see around here are sports bikes and big cruisers and rarely is it a under powered liquor scooter or a low powered motorcycle.
Also almost all are single vehicle crashes running off the road on curves.

On the street outside of my workplace, there have been 2 bicyclist deaths in separate incidents within the last year, having been hit by cars. There is no shoulder for bicycles, or any other slower-moving vehicle to move into.