I thought about it some more and remembered "half measures availed us nothing" called Ted Porter and fount the Yacougar fronts also have a 16mm shaft and steel body and ordered one of them also.DB
I know there are many knowledgeble people involved in thsi discussion but for the newbies It is important for them to realize that there will never be a perfect shock under all conditions. What works will work but it can always be improved upon when conditions change. Establishing a decent baseline is a big plus and from there fine tuning can take place for conditions at hand and of course riding styles. If we all ran on the same surfaces all the time and with the same outfits and driving styles we could compare apples to apples a little easier. Good shocks are a good thing...personally my own outfit lacks good shocks in a huge way but it still gets around pretty well. Of course 'rebuildable' is aplus as well as options to change spring rates. The discussion of spring rates can also be apples to oranges of course. This is especially true on the sidecar itself as there are too many variables on how they are mounted as far as angle goes and where they are mounted on the actual swingarm in relation to the axle and also the length of the swingarm would come into play. A while back there were negative reports of progressive shocks failing on some sidecars. Much has to do with how the whock is mounted and so forth. To help alleviate the problem Some went to twin shocks. Was this th eanswewr? Who knows. We have yet to have a shock failure over there using asingle shocks even though we have had rigs in south america and south africa as well as one heading across russia and siberia soon. Will there be shock failures? Probably at some point as they are a mechanical device. Carry a spare? Not abad idea if one is in the true outback . Thanks Davebig...will be putting on your shocks soon.
There he goes again with his rational thought program !! Claude we're in a world of non mechanics who name their rigs and think problems stem from bad karma ! Your kinder than I am, they make me shake my head and wonder. I wonder what a BMW engineer would think if you told him you where going to overload his tires, brakes and suspension by about 40-50% and you expected everything to work just dandy !!!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOL
He would say "Das ist sehr gut!", but deny it when the warranty people ask about it......... apologies for incorrect grammer, way too many years since high school German.
Boys and Girls we are sidecarists..and we are outside the box. Actually ( seriously whatever) we are looking more and more into other shock options moreso related to dual track vehicles. The cornering forces and handling characteristics we contend with in the sidecar world are different than in the solo bike arena. Also the ones who manufactiure shocks for solo bikes have their market and are good with that...and...rightfully so. Sidecars are NOT motorcycles and never will be. So...no slams here to the shock manufacturers at all but there may be better solutions to meet our known compromises than many of us are really aware of as of yet. How about that for a bunch of words that really said nothing? lol.
Claude: You are right of course. But you'd think that with all the cool stuff they build in Europe that at least one of the shock companies would build something that works well on a sidecar rig. EML says their kits include a replacement for the stock rear shock [and of course the front as they re-do the whole front-end]. They also replace the stock aluminum drive-shaft housing with a steel one to better handle the stresses applied by the car. I'm not saying they are right but it re-inforces [pun alert] your point that rigs are not solo bikes. Duncan
If you where to go to Ted Porters site and download the Wilbers shock spread sheet you'd find models listed for EML sidecars. Looking at the Smiling Swordfish thread our stuff is way downstream from the Euro sidecar companies,I think Claude would probably agree we're unlikely to pay for the stuff they build. Here nobodies had success selling EZS,EML or the Swiss leaners. With all due respect for the author of this thread if I where going to build a very classy rig I'd go to Germany not the PNW. Jay has some positive aspects, Claude has more ( I wanted a swaybar)and a metal body my next choice would have been go to Canada and see Brock and Pete but that just personal preference and limited budget. I hang out in a welding shop I see lots of structural welding I know what I want, some of that stuff Side Effects turns out is incredible but I can't afford it.DB One more thing I hate trikes HD whom I've always scorned have quit the sidecar business and that's kinda sad as they has all their own stuff and not a bad tractor to haul it.DB The voices are angry today Claude LOL
This country is , i think, beginning to work it's way out of the thought that a sidecar outfit is a bike with a sidecar stuck on it and is learning that there are better ways to approach a build.. Some of us have and would love to get into even more dedicated sidecar builds but it is expensive. The HPS outfits that Hannigan has made are a good example. Broc does some great builds also as we have seen here. We can go as far as anyone wishes in this direction but it is up to the owner how far he or she wants to go. Wanta see some wild sidecar outfits go to HU Sidecars.com. Horst Ulrich does some cool stuff based on some bikes that one would not expect.
My Rear shock 1x1 for a sidecar and a R1150GSA There are basically no limits when it comes to how much money one can spend on building a sidecar. In order to keep some kind of budget and schedule one needs to make compromises. This is the story of a rear shock. Chapter 1 – The modified BMW rear shock I decided to listen to the experts instead of my intuition and went forward with a modified BMW rear shock. The modification was simply changing the stock spring to a harder one. When I picked up my sidecar from Germany, I had what I call version 1 of the rear shock. The bike handling was great and I was all excited. The 1000km maiden journey back to Finland were real fun. The bike was heavily loaded on the day of departure! The ride via Baltica (with plenty of fast gravel roads) back to Germany was all fine and when we arrived at Mueller-Gespanne we measured the load of the bike - I cannot remember exact numbers but it was almost 800kg! According to my sidecar builder the sag was too big due to the spring being to soft and thus not being able to carry this load. The easy solution would be to make the spring even harder but then again the shock body starts to look ridiculous small compared to that heavy duty spring. That was the reason we rode to the YSS - shock experts on the other side of Germany near the Dutch border to sort this issue out for once and all. Chapter 2 – The YSS solution I am not a suspension expert but I know when I a shock cannot be installed. We went to that expert in Germany (YSS development is in Netherlands). They explained me that with such heavy spring one needs to use a bigger and stronger body. They also explained that an external reservoir would significantly extend the life time of the shock. In addition the load on the bike would vary a few hundreds of kg between empty and full and thus the preload adjuster would be very handy. OK, made all sense – let's got for that. The shock which I received the next day did not the have the preload adjustment and even then it did not fit into my bike! There was not enough space for the shock to fit into the subframe. Thus I road to Netherlands and visited the YSS development department with my bike so the R&D guys can see the issue first hand. Either YSS has never built such a shock before for the R1150GSA or my subframe has been modified in a way which I have no knowledge off (which I doubt). YSS decided to make a new kind of body so that it would fit my bike with the external oil reservoir and the pre-load adjuster. I continued to ride with my BMW shock until Spain when I finally got my YSS shock. I could not install the shock because the connections for the reservoir and the pre-loader were on the wrong side. Thus I opened both of the mounting bushings (both ends have thread as for height adjustment), turn the shock around until I was able to install it. I made sure that both of the look-nuts were tight. About 200km later on some backcountry road, it was on a tiny bump that suddenly I lost all oil. Skippy confirmed that I put a nice cloud of smoke up into the air. <table class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody> <tr><td style="text-align: center;"></td></tr> <tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">BMW and (prime) YSS shock</td></tr> </tbody></table> The fixing screw from the reservoir line at the body was all loose. Additionally both of the mounting bushing were not tight at all anymore. Lesson learned 1: <table style="width: 100%px;" border="1" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <colgroup><col width="640*"></colgroup> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="TOP" width="100%">It seems that those adjustable mounting bolts are not a good idea as they tend to get loose. If you happen to have a shock which has both mounting bolts adjustable (the upper and lower one to adjust height and make it fit) then the entire shock appears to turn and causes all sorts of domino effects and damage to other parts (e.g. The screws to the reservoir might bang against the subframe, shock collapses and damages rim, tire, break system, other parts).</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Since I did not have a spare shock with me and I needed to move around somewhat (for shopping food etc.) YSS send me a spare shock while I send the prime shock back for repair. The spare shock had no external reservoir neither a preload adjuster. The upper mounting bushing was now one with the body whereas the lower mounting bushing still allowed to adjust for the height. <table class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody> <tr><td style="text-align: center;"></td></tr> <tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Spare YSS shock (Note: much thicker looking nut incl. a fixing screw and thicker lower mounting plate)</td></tr> </tbody></table> A few weeks later while I was in Morocco I got the prime shock back and after a short test drive of about 20km I noted that it started to leak oil from the center shaft. The driving comfort with the prime shock was much better compared to the spare shock and I decided to find a local shop to fix the leaking. To be honest I have no idea what they did but it worked fine. Well, it worked for the next 1000km until we hit a bad road in Mauritania. On a tiny pothole my shock totally collapsed. This time it was the collar on the body which was all the way moved upwards. I put in the spare shock and ever since I was riding happily for the next tens of thousands of kilometers until Death Valley, California where I rode my sidecar into pieces on a famous 4WD track called Racetrack Road. I noted later during the repair of the bike that the spare rear shock started leaking and needed fixing in the upcoming weeks. <table class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody> <tr><td style="text-align: center;"></td></tr> <tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Collapsed (prime shock) ... and that was the end of that rear shock.</td></tr> </tbody></table> Lesson learned 2: <table style="width: 100%px;" border="1" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <colgroup><col width="640*"></colgroup> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="TOP" width="100%">If possible have a spare shock with you including the two mounting bolts (and potentially a spare bushing incl. something to get the old one out).</td> </tr> </tbody></table> It was not until Phoenix, Arizona that I had a chance to discuss the shock's design with one guy at a dealer. Since we had now both shocks on the table (the collapsed prime and the leaking spare). We could make the following observation on the prime shock: It appeared to be that look nut was too thin and did not give enough thread to hold the spring. That seems to have caused the collapse in Mauritania. Furthermore the lower mounting piece was all bent and obviously neither designed for the occurring forces. <table class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody> <tr><td style="text-align: center;"></td></tr> <tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Prime YSS shock (detail: too thin mounting piece)</td></tr> </tbody></table> Additionally we could make the following observations on both shocks: The spring is rather short. I would not be aware of the consequences of this fact until later in Mexico. <table class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody> <tr><td style="text-align: center;"></td></tr> <tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Both YSS shocks on the table (Note: the prime shock got a stronger collar in Las Vegas) and me measuring that the preload on the spring.</td></tr> </tbody></table> Lesson learned 3: <table style="width: 100%px;" border="1" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <colgroup><col width="640*"></colgroup> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="TOP" width="100%">Make sure that the collar is wide enough and the bottom spring mounting piece is thick enough too withstand the forces.</td> </tr> </tbody></table> It was in Durango, Mexico when I did see one of the gazillions of speed bumps too late and went over it too fast. It made Kaboom. The result was that the lower mounting bolt snapped in pieces and the entire bike was sitting on the rear tire. The first fix of making a new thread on welding it onto the old part lasted only 300meters. The next version made out of solid steel lasted until I exchanged the entire shock. Anyway, as a result of those bad hits, the shock was leaking again. Besides that I could feel some tolerances and the bearings appeared to have tolerances by now and would need replacement. Maybe that caused the bending of the M10 mounting bolts. I had enough of that and ordered me a Hyperpro shock. After I had the new Hyperpro in my hand I could make a few comparisons and collect some “hard data”. Comparison Hyperpro versus YSS: <table style="width: 680px;" border="1" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <colgroup><col width="280"></colgroup> <colgroup><col width="210"></colgroup> <colgroup><col width="190"></colgroup> <tbody> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="296"> </td> <td width="210">Hyperpro</td> <td width="190">YSS</td> </tr> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="296">Shock body stroke (up to rubber piece) </td> <td width="210">43mm</td> <td width="190">60mm</td> </tr> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="296">Shock body stroke (w/o rubber piece)</td> <td width="210">66mm</td> <td width="190">76.5mm</td> </tr> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="296">Spring type</td> <td width="210">1290</td> <td width="190">60-265-150</td> </tr> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="296">Spring length</td> <td width="210">190mm</td> <td width="190">132mm</td> </tr> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="296">Spring diameter </td> <td width="210">15.5mm</td> <td width="190">15.5.mm</td> </tr> <tr valign="TOP"> <td width="296">Spring stroke</td> <td width="210">67.7mmm (2+8.8+13.5+15+15+13.5)</td> <td width="190">46mm (12+12+11+11)</td> </tr> </tbody></table> Let's do a little math here and look at the difference "Shock body stroke" minus "Spring stoke". In case of the Hyperpro we get: 66mm - 67.7mm = -1.7mm In case of YSS we get: 76.5 - 46mm = + 30.5mm Lesson learned 4: <table style="width: 100%px;" border="1" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="TOP" width="100%">Spring stroke must be bigger then shock body stroke!</td> </tr> </tbody></table> If the spring stroke is smaller then the shock body stroke it means that the spring will become totally compressed and thus the entire shock will be as hard as a metal piece. The worst part is that this transition from total compression to metal piece happens abrupt - like bang your head against the wall and it hurts. In case of a rear shock, it snaps. No wonder that this YSS shock went broken and in hindsight I am surprised that it even lasted that long! In short, I must say that I am deeply disappointed of YSS. The design of both shocks was clearly flawed from beginning on (-> stroke!). The design of the prime shock was rubbish and I was lucky to get the 1200km on this without getting into any accidents. <table class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody> <tr><td style="text-align: center;"></td></tr> <tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">This is how YSS sends a shock to its customer.</td></tr> </tbody></table> Lesson learned 5: <table style="width: 100%px;" border="1" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="TOP" width="100%">Sometimes it's better to follow your instincts and not follow experts. Experience is no guaranty for knowledge.</td> </tr> </tbody></table> I have spent several hundreds of Euro extra on all this trouble and experimenting. Shipping, customs, extra nights in hotels, driving around in Europe, repairs and so on. The costs were more then a brand-new shock from Hyperpro. Chapter 3 – Hyperpro When I send my request to Hyperpro for building a rear shock the guys instantly said that an external oil reservoir is not possible neither is a preload adjustment. It will be a basic shock and that's it without any extras. The spring is progressive and the hardest they can find in those dimensions. Anything harder (and thus thicker) would lead again to the fact that "shock stroke > spring stroke" (or something like it). <table class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody> <tr><td style="text-align: center;"></td></tr> <tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">This is how Hyperpro sends a package</td></tr> </tbody></table> <table class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody> <tr><td style="text-align: center;"></td></tr> <tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Hyperpro shock.</td></tr> </tbody></table> <table class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody> <tr><td style="text-align: center;"></td></tr> <tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Hyperpro, YSS and wooden emergency shock side by side.</td></tr> </tbody></table> One mysterious issue remains open also with Hyperpro when it comes to the installation. I had this problem with the spare YSS shock and now with the Hyperpro one. <table class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-align: center;" align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tbody> <tr><td style="text-align: center;"></td></tr> <tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Shock did not fit in the first try.</td></tr> </tbody></table> As I was told (later) one needs to push the bushing back before installation :-o (that's why the spare bushing in list of spareparts). The first 150km with the Hyperpro shock went fine and the handling is ok (to the extend I can judge that on Mexican roads). Lesson learned 6: <table style="width: 100%px;" border="1" cellpadding="4" cellspacing="0"> <colgroup><col width="640*"></colgroup> <tbody> <tr> <td valign="TOP" width="100%">Do not try to fix a leaking shock which has been abused heavily. Get a new one and be happy (the extra money is saved later in unwanted stays in hotel bills and customs). </td></tr> </tbody></table> You might ask what about Oehlins and Wilbers? Well, Markus and Karina (from Estonia) rode around the world 2up on a R1150GS and they burned several shocks from those brands. The only one that lasted somewhat was the Hyperpro. If it does not last on a solo bike how would it ever last on a fully loaded hack.
Wolfi--what a great post! I read the whole thing and even as not a mechanical guy I understood everything! My old WUMPA rig was also an 1150GS Adventure. I had an Ohlins with an external preload reservoir (that I always left at "zero" preload so as not to stress the seals in the reservoir), and an adjustable height mount at the bottom. This shock performed well for 30k kilometers. Big difference between your rig and mine--fully loaded with a 50-lb passenger my weight was 560 kg compared to your 800 kg. I still have that shock and I'm installing it on a new rig I'm building. Your post makes me want to measure the gaps between the coils to see what my "spring stroke" is. But you can see that just by looking it appears to be much more than the shock stroke. I have never felt the brick wall you describe so I don't think I've ever compressed that spring all the way. My spring was a special order 79/190 from Ohlins with a nominal spring rate of 19.36 kg/mm. Some members criticized me here for using a too strong spring but it served me well. Here is a picture of mine. Note that Ohlins uses the same thin lock nut for the spring on the body of the shock. But I believe the gold-colored collar below the lock nut is also threaded to the body. I will also mention that though I used WUMPA hard, my use was nothing -- NOTHING! -- compared to your journey. Did you remove the rubber bump stop at the bottom of the shaft on your new Hyperpro?
Thanks - well, I learned a lot about shocks on this journey I have not seen a single hack yet in Mexico No, I did not remove the rubber bump stop at the shaft. Why would I want to do that?
Leave the rubber bump in, if you need to remove it you are doing something wrong! Here is a picture of my Works Performance shock's reservoir: Two important things with heavy loads on rough terrain with our sidecars; 1) a large reservoir with cooling fins, mounted so the reservoir in in air flow. 2) the reservoir needs to have an inlet and an outlet for the oil so that the oil flows completely through the reservoir before returning to the shock. A single line only pumps the oil back an forth. Each line has a one way check valve so the fluid gets a chance to cool before returning to the shock. Many shock failures are heat related such as "blown seals".
Looks good (link please? costs?) I agree with your logic about the cooling and two lines certainly make sense. And its on a R1200 I really do not know why it seems so difficult to make a shock for the R1150GSA with an external reservoir. The problem is in the space given by the subframe (not mounting the reservoir). I assume that when using a smaller body (Hyperpro offers two bodies) it might be possible (as it was with the BMW stock shock). However then again - I assume - the smaller body cannot handle the load which I have on my rig. There have been many R1150GS with sidecar in Europe but I guess they are not so loaded as they only go into vacation and do not carry the entire household with for a few years.
Great write up on your rear shocks Kuhjunge . Some very good information there. Thank you for posting. I have been running a Wilbers shock on the rear of our setup for a few years now . Only problem I have had with it was when the preload sprung a leak. I really like your spare shock , the wood one I have made the same ,but it is steel. Cheers Ian.
In Lieu of the wooden shock we could build a steel one that is adjustable for ride height. Hardtail GS's could be the coming thing! Be the first to add this new farkle!!!
Kuhjunge: Great post - lots of good info. You too, Strongbad. I need new shocks - Claude: Didn't you already install one for DaveBig - Maybe that's why he is such a hardass. Thanks, Duncan
Kuhjunge; my earlier post in this thread: You won't find sidecar rear shock prices in their on line catalog. There just isn't enough of us running around, i guess. Call and talk to Pierre and tell him you want the same set up as Craig Williams.
