To keep the stupid questions thread, well, stupid in the "Husky TR650 Owners Stupid Questions Thread." I am creating another thread specific to the TR650 where we can focus on all things AIT, EJK, PC5, AF-Xied, wideband and narrow band 02 sensors, LC1 and LC2. Discuss what's working, what isn't, what devices you've tried and what enhancements you would like to see the vendors make to create a better running TR650
Thanks for this new thread as I'm working with a Wuka King on a Strada and a Wiseco (Dobeck) on a Terra with an AF-XIED on the shelf at the moment. The jury's still out
I'd be interested in your thoughts on the Wiseco. It's a bit cheaper than the EJK, but I don't think it has as many settings. I'm looking for something to correct the overly lean condition, but I don't want a temp spoofer which can be "learned" by the ECU and I don't want to use a laptop to make changes to the unit. It seems like my choices are Wiseco or EJK, but I'm new to this because I just bought the bike.
FWIW, I just had my buddy's 2014 on the dyno yesterday to install/test a PCV. With the PCV it picked up nicely, it appears Dynojet did a nice job building the map for a stock bike. The map adds fuel thru the midrange but actually leans it on the big end - wasn't expecting to see that. For me it begs the question, how can a device (spoofer/whatever) that is only off-setting the fuel one direction (richer) get the best results? I've read that some have issues with hanging idle w/ PCV. His bike did not. If it did though, the first thing I'd try is setting the 0% and 2% throttle tables back to zeros (or at least reducing them). Another thing I noticed is the HP gains fell off at ~7750rpm - which is where they stopped reducing the fuel by 9% on the 100% throttle map. I may put it back on dyno and play with that. Anyway, that's what I know... For shits/grins I compared his w/ PCV to my TE630 w/ PCV. (printer running out of ink) .
In order to consider which type of fueling "enhancement" you want to invest in, and what you can expect from it, it helps to know how an ECU calculates the amount of fuel (length of time the injector is pulsed open). Below is a simple outline of how the Bosch/BMW Motronic works, which is typical for a vehicle with a Throttle Position Sensor but no manifold pressure sensor, and an Oxygen sensor. The calculations below happen continuously, thousands of times per second and are one of the the main functions of the ECU. All fueling calculations begin with an Open Loop calculation and proceed (under certain conditions) to the Closed Loop calculations. Open Loop fueling calculations go roughly like this, performed on a millisecond by millisecond basis: 1) Read RPM and TPS: Find a base-fuel-value by using the four closest cells in the fuel table 2) Measure Engine Temperature: If not warmed-up, add a correction, otherwise skip this step 3) Measure Input Air Temperature (from the airbox IAT sensor): Apply a correction factor from a table 4) Measure Air Pressure (does the Magneti Marelli ECU have a built in sensor?): Apply a correction factor from a table 5) Measure Battery Voltage: Apply a correction factor from a table (corrects injector performance vs battery voltage) 6) Measure if TPS is moving, and how fast it is moving: add fuel if TPS opening, remove fuel if TPS closing. 7) Based on RPM/TPS: Apply Mixture Adaptation values (can be 2 or 3 or a small table) learned previously during Closed Loop 8) If the RPM or TPS is changing quickly, if the Throttle is open very wide, or if the engine is cold, fire injector for calculated time and go back to step 1, otherwise continue to step 8 Closed Loop fueling steps 9) Apply the most recent Lambda Control Factor (LCF) (short term fuel trim) 10) Read the O2 sensor and determine whether to increase or decrease the LCF so as to remain close to Lambda = 1 (or a shifted value) 11) Determine whether to update any Mixture Adaptation values (long term fuel trim) 11) Fire injector for calculated time and go back to step 1 The two yellow-highlighted steps are how the ECU learns and applies the corrections called Mixture Adaptations and how what is learned during the Closed Loop calculations gets applied to the Open Loop fueling calculations. It is elegant and powerful, and must be understood before making changes to a Closed Loop fueling system. A key observation is that Open Loop and Closed Loop fueling are not separate processes. Closed Loop steps occur as often as possible so that the mixture stays as close to the O2 sensor switch point as possible, to keep the catalytic converter happy. Type of Enhancements 1. Products that disconnect the O2 sensor and disable the ECU Closed Loop corrections: Powercommander and EJK. Both systems lengthen the fueling pulse after it leaves the ECU, on the way to the injectors. Usually an ECU goes into Limp Home Mode if the O2 sensor is disconnected, and the ECU can no longer calculate fuel trims. 2. Products that maintain closed loop but attempt to shift "open loop fueling", such as an IAT-shifter. In order to believe that these products work, you have to believe that there are no long term fuel trims. 3. Products that change oxygen sensor switching point lambda-shifters. Normally a narrowband O2 sensor switches between 200 and 800 mV exactly at lambda=1 (14.7:1 for gasoline). These products work by replacing the stock signal with one that switches between 200 and 800 mV at a richer lambda (e.g. Lambda=0.96, which is 13.8:1 for gasoline). The ECU then learns to add fuel in Closed Loop and create RICHER long term fuel trims. Examples of this type of product are the Innovate Motorsports LC-2 & MXT-L and the Nightrider AF-XIED. Apologies for the length of this.
So you've obviously studied this a lot more than I have . What are you proposing is the best solution? My only comment/observation for the closed loop/open loop debate centers on the accuracy of O2 sensors on big thumpers with the exhaust pipe fully exposed to the airstream... What I observed with my TE on the dyno and the Innovate LM1 sensor in the factory bung - as soon as I turned on the dyno cooling fan I got erratic reading from the O2. I messed with it a while and decided if open loop was good enough for gen1 'busas and my 919 it was good enough for the TE. With out good data coming from the O2 closed loop was a loosing battle. .
Why not adding an autotune? Closed loop functionality is a very good thing to have for fuel economy and varying elevations.
As most of you know I am running the AF-XIED device on my bike. I leave Monday for 14-16 days along the Mississippi River. The XIED is set on F7 at the moment which has cured most of my problems with some minor stumbling while the o2 sensor is warming. On the south bound leg of my trip I am going to switch it to F6 to see if the bike behaves the same (which I am hopeful) and at the same time see minor gains in fuel economy. At the end of the trip I am going to conclude my "beta" test with XIED on the TR650 and mount an LC2 on my bike. This will/should provide us with a plethora of information regarding how our ECU works. Right now I am concentrating on packing and getting the bike ready for a 2100 mile trip.
Well I am at a total loss which way to go. I am needing a cause/reason why my engine failed. My biggest suspect t has been the TPS being set at the restricted 70% maximum range, instead of 83%. The importer has claimed that the ecu could adapt out this minor issue. I even asked them how it could because my wot would be certainly running in a open loop mode. I figure the ecu must have been missing some 13% in it's air intake volume calculations. The importer dismissed this theory as rubbish and the ECU would adapt. So the blame is on the pod filter now somehow increasing airflow by some sort of substantial amount that the ecu could not adapt for the change. The importer was/is keen for me to fit and dyno tune it with a PC-V, and that should prevent future engine failure/damage. I like the idea of the LC-2 also very much. So when they patch this engine back up which way should I go?
Closed Loop is a very good thing. Even with the expensive Autotune option, the O2 input to the ECU is disconnected, so the bike loses its adaptive capability and runs a limp home fueling pattern. DJ doesn't mention that. And I believe that the mm ECU already has a barometric pressure sensor. Yes Autotune has a Wideband sensor and yes, it connects to the PCV and yes, you can have the PCV automatically load fueling times that are equal to the fueling needed to hit a target AFR that you program. But those values really need to be manually inspected (even Dynojet recommends it) before being loaded. Look at the chart below from an experience rider of an f800gs with PCV and Autotune, it produced numbers that fluctuated dramatically (0 means don't Autotune, 10 is the starting value, and 25 is the limit). Notice that the values in adjacent cells can be 10-15%. Near idle, one cell is +19, the next is -13, and the next is +12%. These anomalies need to be manually adjusted.
The most bullet proof lambda-shifting solution is your AF-XIED. It connects to the durable Narrowband O2 sensor and can be easily removed if you ever suspect a problem. The LC-2 and MTX-L from innovate are solid, accurate and add great diagnostic capabilities. They aren't plug and play. You have to buy and wire an O2 connector, a serial cable for your PC. You then program it, and check on it occasionally. I love my LC-1 but some others who bought LC-1 wish they had done the simpler bulletproof XIED. Oh, you can also program LEANER mixtures with the LC-1.
An LC-2 on one of your bikes would help answer the question, How does the MM ECU fuel when the O2 sensor is disconnected. What does its Limp Home Fuel pattern look like? Below is an example chart from my bike. The top graph is with adaptations reset and no o2 connected, running 10% ethanol. Notice how much the fueling jumps and how wide the distribution of fueling is in the inset histogram in the right. The bottom line on the chart is the same but I added a BoosterPlug (the first thing I bought to try and improve fueling). If you choose and "Open Loop" solution you are likely to get this non-optimum pattern. Here is the fueling pattern of the same bike with O2 connected. Much tighter fueling. Top is immediately after ECU reset. Bottom is after an adaptation time. Notice how narrow the fueling distribution is on the histogram and the right.
Thing is I have been running the AF-Xied from very early on. When I look back at it my bike could have been very sick before fitting the unit. The AF-Xied probably worked that well it masked the fact the TPS wasn't set up for the de resricted bike. The TPS got reset between 5-6000km and the power difference was huge. I was running setting #7 but found at around the 7000km mark while running with "humphdawg" (another Terra owner) that it was using 15-20% more fuel than on setting #3. Again not blaming the AF-Xied here, but the head gasket issue must have been causing some funky readings from the lambda sensor or something? My top end power was also improved with the lower #3 setting. Do these pics give any clues or trends to the demise of this engine? Was a dodgy head gasket the culprit in the beginning? Did the limited TPS range that should have been reset when the bike was de restricted, cook my engine from the get go? Or is it what I'm being told from the mechanic that the pod modification added that much extra air into my engine that it's pushed the compression that high to cause the detonation issue? Which came first the chicken or the egg, are there any clues? Seems the LC-2 device is the only way for me to track and record AFR's. How else can I feel safe that this engine isn't going to do exactly the same thing again? BTW- I still have 2 dual temp Wukaking power controller spoofers for sale in oz flea market if anyone is keen. The benefits just don't last long, you unplug it, the bike runs a bit crap 15 minutes later and you think I'll plug that back in and it helps again. Been there done that on all 3 bikes. You really need to remove or replace the spoofers 2 or 3 tank fulls of gas apart. The initial plug in of a spoofer will always reward you, but does it truly last? Cheers, Q
JustRon, I believe that the EJK, Wiseco, FMF, etc. are all rebadged Dobeck units. I have an FMF badged one on a WR250R and it's identical in every respect to the Wiseco. Check out Dobeck.com. Right now, I'm using 6.5/3/.05/1/3/2 settings for the TR650 Terra (suggested by others) with similar results to the TR650 Strada with the Wuka Plug. However, I do suspect that Roger 4RT may be correct that the ECU is gradually adapting to the Wuka's temperature shift. I noticed yesterday that the Strada isn't pulling as strongly from 3k as it did before nor as well as the recently installed Wiseco on the Terra. The Wuka King or equivalent is a less expensive alternative, but like the Dobeck units, will add some fuel at the top where it's not needed and may need an ECU reset to reestablish functionality. John