Hey, I’m planning/ searching/ researching for a Dnepr, <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on">Chang Jiang</st1lace>, or Ural, in that order. This is due to what I’ve seen available and price around me (MA.).<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o> <o></o> Has anyone been able to drive and compare the ride of a Dnepr (say a MT16 or MT11) to a <st1lace w:st="on">Chang Jiang</st1lace>? Does one ride better that the other?<o></o> I assumed they are about the same…. but figured I better ask if anyone has had experience with both.<o></o> Thanks!<o></o>
Hehehe, this thread promises to turn into another brand-racist pissing contest I haven't ridden all 3 makes myself.....come to think of it, I haven't ridden the Dnepr I've got :huh But each has certain characteristics that you ought to consider. #1 Changs are sidevalve engines, which means they will run forever....slowly. Sidevalve engines cannot make the compression overhead valve engines can make, so they can't make the horsepower OHV's can make. Changs are also 1 wheel drive. If you want to ride in the snow and go over 50 MPH you'll want a Dnepr or Ural (here's where the pissing comes in). There's lots of members here who've ridden all these bikes and will defend thier favorite to the death but IMHO, if you have the ability to work on your own machine then the only real advantage to a Ural over Dnepr is easy parts availability.
Yes parts availability…..was saving that one for another post. I hope this one doesn’t get to bad, I think I know what to expect reliability wise…nothing….and I’m not afraid. Worst case I’ ll pour a concrete pad and mount the bike on it. I’ve got, am keeping, and will continue to ride my Ninja 250, so looking for something that requires hourly maintenance……. So would like to hear from you if you’ve driven both…but guess it may not be a fair comparison 2WD MT16 vs 1WD CJ750. Tank vs Tractor?
I have put a number of miles on examples of all three marques. Leaving aside issues of build quality and engine design they all had different suspension design. I had the older CJ750 which had a sprung rear axle rather than a swingarm, "telescopic" forks with very limited travel and the sidecar axle was a rubber torsion unit with the hack suspended by leaf springs and rubber pivots. The sidecar itself was a comfortable ride, a little bouncier than the Ural or Dnepr but quite nice. The bike suspension barely worked and was only slightly better than rigid. Handling reflects this. The wheels were the old bottle cap style with stamped steel hubs, no cooling fins, and very narrow brake surface. They were inefficient and over heated easily. I actualy set the paint on the hubs afire comeing off the ridge behind my house. The spokes were long and very weak and the rims were lumpy. CJ handling is adequate for parade duty and low speed goofing around. It is antiquated in design and not suitable for modern traffic or steep hills. You can do anything if you are stubborn but don't expect the CJ to be much help doing it. in my opinion. The Ural and Dnepr are very similar to each other in function, but the design differs in details. Dnepr drum brakes are a better design and easier to adjust than the Ural drum brakes.Newer Ural wheels have a better spoke design than the Dnepr and are much less prone to breaking. The hubs on both bikes are aluminum with finning and wider brake surfaces The brakes and wheels are apt to be out of round. The brake shoes are hard, don't work until they bed in and don't work well after they do, but are much better than Chang brakes. The older bikes have bottlcap wheels like my CJ did, but they are a little better made and have heavier spokes. The disc brakes on newer Urals are pretty good, although they did have some problems with the brake stays on the earliest versions. My Dnepr had telescopic forks which weren't great but worked OK . The swing arm on the bike and on the sidecar are different than the Ural, the shocks appear the same. I felt the Dnepr handled highway speeds better than the Urals I have played on, without swaying or darting from side to side. Below about 50 mph they handle about the same and both are really fun when you get off the pavement(The Chang was also great fun in the dirt, but the ride was rougher, and the brakes weren't as good). Ural telescopic forks(the Russian forks not the later Italian forks some models used) and Dnepr telos work about the same. All these bikes benefit from replacing the OEM fork oil with real fork oil. Ural leading links also work well, although some of them come misaligned from the factory and if the shocks are not working(which is often the case) handling suffers greatly. Make sure the links are straight, the pivots and shocks are functioning, and these forks will work quite well. Ural and Dnepr sidcars have a swing arm and shock with the body suspended by rubber springs and pivots. The passengers ride is nice, not as bouncy as a CJ but also a little harsher in the rough. A stock Dnepr motor, a stock Ural 650 and a stock /2 BMW all have about the same power & performance. The CJ has about 12 hp less. A new Ural 750 brings the performance up to nearly acceptable levels. Although I wouldn't want to drive one on LA freeways, I wouldn't hesitate to drive one from, say, Portland to Seattle. Sort of like an old VW bug. It can just do it, but if you flog it too much or get into thick, fast traffic, you might regret your choice. Just my opinions. I have driven all three bikes, but as always, YMMV
This is almost like asking, which brand of vanilla ice cream tastes best? If You take the new generation Urals out of the equation, Chang's, Dnepr's, and Urals are pretty much variations of the same machine. Some will make a big deal about full time 2wd. but if if the rig is set up well, the yaw issue is so minor, only the truly anal will worry about it. I think the average rider wont find any real difference. Opinions will vary, especially if they want to sell You something, but I have observed, parts wise; engineering quality, #1 Dnepr #2 Ural #3 Chang Build quality #1 Ural #2 Dnepr #3 Chang Ease of maintainability/repair #1 Chang #2 Dnepr #3 Ural Availability of quality parts #1 Ural/Dnepr #2 Chang Price of parts (lowest price) #1 Chang #2 Ural/Dnepr I would be happy to have any of them as a project, and for back road jaunts. If a good deal comes up, I wouldn't worry about brand.
Well, I looked at this same spread myself, I decided to go with a Chang car on an older UJM... I am giving up reverse gear, but in the end I will be in for less money and have a more powerful and better quality tug (stock mags for one, no spoke concerns). Of course I am still setting the rig up and it is a lot more work on the front end... It might still go very wrong....
I know a gentleman who owns several of each, He claims He prefers how the Chang handles because it is more ridged, yet he only rides the MV regularly? It is always interesting how opinions, and preferences vary. For what is worth, I think Redmenace is the most objective, and reliable source of expert hack advice I have found on line. To often opinions of others are tainted by blind brand loyality, or somebody trying to shill their wares.
Great stuff! Thanks all. I'm in and will keep you all posted. RedMenace, thank you for taking the time to write all that you did. NemoD thanks for the teardown write up...got me looking into Dnepr's Was a little worried about parts too, but even that dosen't sound too bad (between Dnepr and CJ) This is going to be good!
Even if I didn't have a brand new machine to work with, I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Dnepr. There are plenty of sources of replacement parts, and in one way Yuri serves us well.....all those junk bikes he sells are available cheap on E-bay for spares units A good running Dnepr may actually be more cost effective than buying a used Ural, cause Dnepr repair parts will be cheaper than new Ural dealer stuff. I hope you find a nice piece, of any of the 3. I love old bikes of any make, and I'm always willing to help w/advice/ideas. I don't claim to be an expert, if you need any Dnepr mechanical advice feel free to ask. But Red Menace is a guru, ask him first
Actually for Dnepr advice you would be far better asking at Russian Iron or Soviet steeds. There are folks there far more knowledgable than I about the mysteries of these bikes.
Great. I am a new memeber (0 posts) at Russian Iron. Great info for sure. As a matter of fact, this morning I almost posted my question there (RussianIron) but stopped and posted it here, since it was about "ride". Not disapointed either. Side car class in a week, then I do believe a Dnepr will be the way I go. The kids are going to be out of their minds...wife too for that matter.
I can only speak of my experience. I've ridden two types of Chang.......the plunger frame and the swing arm frame type M15 or otherwise know as the "plastic" Chang. The plastic Chang rides like a waterbed, wallows and is spongy feeling. The side car also has shock based suspention. The feel is no doubt due to the shocks and it's set up for a less jarring ride. The Caddy of the Chang world. I've an OHV Chang M1super with mag wheels............mag wheels are round, do not break spokes and are generally superior to the spoke wire wheels.......with the exception of the M5 repro hub wheels available from Jim. Jims hubs have the same characteristics with the mag wheels I have in that the hub has a cast iron lining and allows for substantially wider brake shoes. The tub has a torsion bar type suspention and leaf springs, works pretty well and is tough......no rubber to deteriorate. I'm in China so Chang is the bike of choice obviously........if I was in Russia a Ural or Dnepr obviously. In the US it would obviously be a tougher choice, had I not gone to China I wouldn't have chosen any of them. I'm partial to the Chang now because I have one, parts are easy to get and cheap, it's easy to fix but I imagine they all are. I like the look of the Chang and it's plunger frame better and mine feels pretty stable at @120kph.......the engine less so. The Changs look more vintage with the plungder frame and are probably cheaper to aquire than an K750 from the former Soviet block. The one wheel drive is one less thing to worry about. The flat heads are quaint and I'll have one one day but I feel they are hampered by their tendency to run hot in stop and go traffic.........out in country I wouldn't worry.......in the desert I would. The BMW powered conversions Jim does are probably the pinnacle.......looks, power, stability at speed and more reliable. Although I've had no serious mechanical issues with my OHV I'm also a realist and the thrashing I give mine I know those issues are never far away. Choose based on what you like the look of.......you'll make an informed one but it won't be rational. A rational mind would buy something else entirly.
I have a Dnepr with a BMW /6 conversion. I have ridden a friend's Ural 650, and been a passenger in a Chang. 1) I think the Chang is a pretty bike. With the plunger suspension it really looks the business. They are MUCH smaller in person than in pictures by the way. The one I spent some time in could be started by hand with the kick starter but runs like a top. A very sano little machine. The guy that owns it has to endlessly re-engineer things, but I'm sure that's part of the fun for him. I can't comment on reliabilty. 2) The Dnepr feels long by comparison. Pretty near indestructible frame and body parts, driveline is original 1982 and other than a bit of differential spline wear (likely the result of the BMW conversion) seems pretty much the same. Suspension is ridiculous in the front (Dneprs are overwhelmingly tele compared to Urals), pretty plush out back. Comfy road bike with military gearing, so it's life at 52mph nearly all the time. I love it. 3) The Ural is the better bike off road and that's the 1WD version, 2WD is very likely even better. My friend's is a 1996 and it's been pretty good so far, although he was an early victim of some ham-fisted mechanic work by the PO. The only fuel tank uglier than a Ural's is a Dnepr's. His brakes are better, my transmission shifts better. The Ural yaws all over the road.
Got a couple those too. <input id="gwProxy" type="hidden"><!--Session data--><input onclick="jsCall();" id="jsProxy" type="hidden">
I had a R75/5 with Velorex and a Chang Jiang M1M. I got them both within 1 week of each other. I rode the R75 on a 700 mile round trip in three days and interstates at up to 70 mph (GPS). I wouldn't think of doing that in the Chang. I DID ride the Chang 200 miles in one day. When it started to over heat, I just pulled the choke half way and kept motoring. The R75 went faster, longer and more reliably. I sold the R75. The Chang has a very vintage vibe to it, and constantly fixing things is part of the charm. I revive bikes all the time and have a well stocked shop (Plasma, weld, mill, lathe, etc...) and I love to wrench. The Chang may not be a good choice if you are only going to own one bike. If it's your second bike, go for it. BTW, my rear shock broke where the axle mounts to it (plunger frame). It was broken from the PO. I had ridden about 400 miles with it broken and didn't even know it till I had to put on the spare tire. I ordered one (the ENTIRE left shock) from Shanghai and got it in 7 days (I'm in the USA). Cost? $40 plus $20 shipping. Amazing. I don't really need 2WD as I don't ride it that roughly, but reverse gets used every day!
There's a guy on Russian Iron who just listed his KMZ (pre-Dnepr) MT-12 for $3,000. Here's what he wrote about it: Here's what I responded: Talk about your Adventure Riders.
Looks nice, I just ask him for bike location....unless I missed it. Staying busy browsing SovietSteeds, RussianIron, ChangJiangUnlimited/ ChangExperience on the CJ's! Good stuff on each of those sites and I know there even more sites, although I find the yahoo groups format (Chang) hard to follow/ read. Side car class this Friday...in MA, but wish it was at the base of Mt. Hood like RedMenace's classes! Still appreciate the feed back here.
I own a cj750. I own a Ural M62. I own a /7 BMW. I owned a dnepr MT11. I would rate all changs, ural 650's and dneprs about the same in terms of performance, reliability and ease of maintenance. It all depends on who's had it before you and how they've maintained it or sorted (or not sorted) it out (or in the Cj750 case, who built it) Parts are available for all three across EBAY. Cheaply. Germany is a fab place for bits. Some things are worth having, such as TLS front brakes , 12v electrics (at night), electronic ignition etc. However, you can often retro-fit. The ride is down to personal opinion. I prefer the sidevalve. Softer, quieter engine, pulls like a train up and down hills. However, it's limited in performance and operating temperature. I prefer the plunger frame. Makes for a smaller, cleaner bike. The Ural 750 (from around 2000) is a different animal. It gets better every year as they modify it - and in that respect it's more akin to a modern bike.
