Elite 150 with constant troubles

Hey everyone, I'm new to the Advrider forum, so heres my story:

I currently own a very ill 1985 Honda Elite 150 with just 1700 miles on her that I simply cannot get running reliably. The major issue with the bike is that it simply will not idle. Since I bought it last year, I haven't been able to get it to start and idle reliably for more than a few hours. When the bike does start, it typically idles very well for 2-3 seconds, then the idle lowers way down to where the bike is barely sustaining its cycle (after the idle lowers, any opening of the throttle immediately makes the engine die), then the bike will give small backfire, and die. I have also found that when I unplug the bystarter, the bike withstands a better chance of warming up, and sometimes (usually just after a carb cleaning) the bike will warm up enough to the point where it will be able to idle and run properly, but ONLY when the bystarter is disconnected :huh... Also, on the few occasions where I have actually had the chance to ride it around, it accelerates phenomenally, and pulls well right through to its top speed.

I have tried cleaning out the carburetor 4 times now to no avail. I have also tried adjusting the idle mixture and idle speed screw with nothing more than temporary results. The battery, spark plug, and a uni filter ar all newly installed, and I have also installed a fuel filter to prevent any debris from getting into the carb that may have collected in the tank over the past 25 years.

I have also replaced the Auto Bystarter with one of the ones off the internet, but upon removing it to do yet another carb cleaning, I managed to destroy the o-ring seal on the bystarter and although this might be a contributing factor, the bike has exhibited the same symptoms before and after this happened...

The fact the bystarter has to be off in order for the bike to stand a chance to run suggests to me that the carb is clogged somewhere in the pilot circuit, which is preventing it from idling properly when the bystarter begins to close up, but after all the attempts I've made to clean the carb, I still haven't gotten it to run

Yesterday, I broke down and ordered a "OEM Replacement" carb off of ebay, and although I don't want to have to use it (japanese built is ALWAYS better) I feel like there is something wrong with the original that I simply cannot track down... Has anyone replaced their original Carb with one of these Ebay carbs yet?

I know this is all a LOT of info to put in one post, but I'm really desperate to get this bike working! It's taken me a whole year to get to where I am and to be honest, it feels like I've gotten nowhere! Is there anything you guys can suggest that may solve my issues without having to try using the Chinese replacement carb?

Thanks,
THE_SHRUB

CDI unit is more then likely the carb needing replacement but the by-stater is also suspect. You could always try ultra sound cleaning which works to take out every bit of dirt. CDi was why one guy went with monster CDI replacement. He dump tons of cash in his. Was found climbing high mountains in the far east seeking a wise answer to this question. Only when a Descendant of Frankenstein gave him spare CDI his grand father didn't use did he reanimate his bike. Only problems is the bike being found haunting twisting winding byways let out a mournful wail.

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=643448&page=2

This will let you in on all my troubles with my Elite. I sympathize...

My troubles start on # 74

I hear ya! Elite 150s are going to be a downright pain in the ass for a while.

Regardless of milage, if you have an old Elite 150 you WILL experience many problems for a while. But once you have them all sorted out, then you'll have maybe 1-2 more problems and then it's going to be one hell of a scooter from there. These bikes are a more high level scooter, you don't just put gas in and go like you do a brand new scooter after they've sat.

I have put $2,000+ into mine, do to the motor failing and having major internal damage, countless water leaks, oil leaks, low oil pressure, intermittent power problems as mentioned I replaced my CDI, etc. But you know what? I don't regret doing it at all. I've learned a lot about working on motorcycles and got some good experience, and know I've got a damn reliable scooter that has many advantages and more performance than most new scooters.

Your problem is pretty typical.

The thing to remember is its ALL about Fuel, Air, Spark, and Compression. If you have these, the bike WILL run. No questions asked.

Your problem may be fuel or air related.

So lets start with Fuel. Is your carburetor reliably getting a good supply of gas? The Elite 150 uses an automatic petcock. There is a small hose going to the intake manifold, this hose supplies engine vaccume to the petcock. When the engines running, it's suction opens up the petcock, allowing the fuel to flow freely. When the engines not running, theres no vaccume so the petcock stops anymore fuel from getting to the engine.

Maybe you have a vaccume leak? If this tube has even a small leak, there will be little or no fuel flowing, resulting in the engine barley or not running. I would replace this hose. The petcock itself or a clogged fuel filter could also be to blame.

If the carb is getting fuel, then its unlikely this. Since you've cleaned your carburetor well, its unlikely a carb issue.

You mention the engine only runs but barley only when the auto by starter enrichment circuit is on? As in its enriching the mixture [Choke on]? This circuit just puts out a little extra fuel at the end of the carburetor venturi, so it sounds like your mixture may be off. Check your intake manifold for any leaks.

REPLACE YOUR INTAKE MANIFOLD! Even if its not related. If there are even tiny cracks from age, the engine will be sucking in air past the carburetor, resulting in a very lean condition. This can damage or destroy your engine eventually. Maybe this has leaks and with the gas from the enrichment circuit the engine can run?

Just for trouble shooting's sake make sure your air system is good. Clean air filter and no leaks in air pipe.

If you have fuel and air, then its almost got to be spark in your case. Replace your spark plug, and check for a clean blue spark. Also check the continuity between terminals in your CDI, as these can become a problem.

You surely have compression on an engine that hasn't been damaged with such low miles.

If none of these are the problem, well they are! Just keep trouble shooting over and over and over again until you find it. Just eliminate things slowly, and try to find it.

Every once in a while, start over. The things you eliminated, double check. This is what worked for me. I had eliminated almost everything like 3 times, and couldn't find any possible explanation for my intermittent problems as shown on the link. But I started over a few times, and once time I just looked into the CDI, and when I measured ohms between it's terminals I could hardly believe it ran! A new monster CDI for $39 shipped and my power problems are over.

You'll get it! Eliminate things and we'll help you nail it! Ask any questions you may have!

Some inspiration for you is these are truly great scooters once you get them going! I get 85 MPG normally, 75-80 MPG WOT, and have achieved 100 MPG with very light riding. 80-100 MPG can't be beat easily!

These Elite 150s will run a true 65-70 MPH by GPS, and are peppy off the line! Not to mention I find my Speedo to be dead on accurate unlike almost all new scoots.

I had a similar issue with my Elite, and after going through three carbs, I discovered someone mis-adjusted the valves. Just for kicks, follow the service manual's instructions and readjust the valves; it's quick, easy, and might save you a ton of hassle!

Thanks for the encouragement!! I cleaned the carb for the 6th time today, and when I was removing it I made an interesting discovery, I found that the carb bowl gasket was leaking, which likely indicates two issues: 1. the gasket is obviously kapput, and 2. the float level is off and/or float valve seat is clogged, either of which would give the bike troubles when idling... What this all means really is that I have to wait for that damn chinese carb to arrive for me to either a) replace the carb completely or b) rebuild the float assembly in the original using parts form the "chinglish" carb.

I don't recall noticing this issue last season when I rebuilt the carb the first few times, so this may have been a new development from storage over the winter.

WHERE CAN I SOURCE A NEW INTAKE MANIFOLD!??!!?! Should I buy new new, like NOS or should I get one off of another bike (the cheaper but less logical option )

And you're totally right about your troubleshooting philosophy, Last year when I was working on the bike I was dealing with electrical gremlins with the turn signals, it took 4 attempts at rebuilding the turn signal switch, but in the end I succeeded in getting it to work, and in fact, its STILL working! So I guess I will just have to keep eliminating problems, and keep fighting the good fight to keep "Sheila" alive! (YES, THATS RIGHT, I NAMED MY BIKE SHEILA )

Oh wow! I never bothered to even look at that part of the manual because I had feared I would be taking off the cam headers or something complicated to adjust the valve clearance! But that really IS dead easy! So it looks like the list of things I can do to the bike is growing, but the amount of question marks should start dwindling!!

So I suppose if I do the valve clearance, the float rebuild, the CDI and work my way through the whacky elaborate vacuum system Honda came up with, I'll be heading in the right direction WHOO HOO!! Thanks guys, you've gotten me all pumped up again!!

Oh and just for your pleasure, here is a video of the Sheila on one of the days she decided to cooperate with me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9Lcd39Qw5E

Yep sounds like your in the right direction!

The carb gasket could leak for varies reasons. It can be old age and dried out, or from carb cleaner. Some kinds of carb cleaner tend to eat these gaskets right up if your not careful.

What are you using to clean the carb? Make sure you blow all the internal passageways out with compressed air as well.

Yea make a good carb out of the china carb and the old Honda. Thats what I'm running! And this carb is great! It starts right up and runs relentlessly any day any time rain or shine freezing or hot!

As for the intake manifold, always buy brand new and they can be had at Honda Parts House/ Babbitts Sport Center.

I agree w/ BTCN, those Chinese carbs can't hold a candle to a properly functioning Kei-Hin. I bought one, only to find it LOADED with subtle defects. I ended up using it for parts; o-rings, gaskets, float, and diaphragm. The Frankencarb ran for the 4,000 miles I put on it before selling the bike.

Hey guys,

Got a quick question about the whole float bowl rebuild process, when reading the ch150 repair manual, it is really vague how you are supposed to check/adjust the float level. I assume this is because the original float was never designed to be adjusted, but the chinese one that will be coming soon is adjustable, so how exactly do I adjust the float?

So I checked the shipping statuses of the CDI and Carb I ordered online last week, the CDI is on its way to my house as we speak, while the Carb still says "USPS has been electronically notified..." blah blah blah it still hasn't shipped

So at somepoint today I will get a chance to change out the CDI and see if it makes any difference to my lil' elite.

I kind of wish I had sprung for the "no rev-limit" Monster CDI that btcn has been raving about for the past while on his thread, but money is tight right now so I had to settle for the basic replacement one.

Has anyone ever swapped out their stock Ignition coil with one of those orange "high-performance" GY6 ones? I'm thinking if the CDI and Carb don't solve my issues I might tackle the Ignition coil and replace it with the so-called performance replacement...

I'll post an update later today on whether the CDI alone does the trick

I swapped out the CDI, visually they look identical, and the new one fit perfect into the old one's harness. So I plugged the new CDI in, turned the key and hit the start and.... Same issue, starter turns over, every once in a while the engine will roar to life, and then a few seconds later it dies (if anything, with the new CDI, it sounded stronger when it was running than ever, but that could be my biased opinion), to me it almost sounds like the vacuum system issue now, but I installed a brand new clear fuel line between my the fuel filter I installed, and the carb and its full of gas, plus the issue with the float bowl being flooded sort of contradicts that doesn't it? BTW, what color should the gas be? I just want to rule out any possibility of bad gas...

I managed to get the bike running once (albeit Breifly) today by revving it right when it started up, and it revved nicely until of course I closed the throttle and it pretty much immediately died.

So, on the plus side, I've ruled out the CDI, and can now turn my attention elsewhere on the bike. Another nagging issue is weather, over the last week we have yet to hit 10 Degrees Celsius and it's still snowing, which isn't making it any easier to work on the bike

Anyways, I will simply wait for the china carb to arrive, and swap out the float bowl, along with the bowl gasket, and maybe even some of the vacuum hoses for good measure, I'm not sure if I mentioned this yet, but last time I rebuilt the carb, the float "tongs" that keep the needle under tension/push the needle up and down, were grossly and I mean GROSSLY loose. To the point where the little spring loaded pin in the needle was not pushing on anything...

Will post when the Carb comes in, till then I can't do much but wait, and maybe source out a new intake manifold...

Also, is there anywhere that I can get the right sized vacuum hose to replace my current ones and ensure thats not the issue?

At least you ruled the CDI out although it may help your overall performance. BTW you WON'T get any more performance with no rev limit! The low stress engine design on the Elite 150 and 250 gives these bikes a rev limit mechanically. The torque and horsepower curves literally flatten out to nothing at 55 MPH, so basically at these speeds theres absolutely no power left, not enough power to pull off higher RPMs than safe. Supposably with this design, its perfectly safe to run these bikes at WOT all day long, although my bike doesn't sound happy at over 50 MPH and I wouldn't do it for long. Oh and from what I hear the stock rev limiter doesn't kick in until about 80 MPH anyways.

So know we now you have Fuel and Spark. Oh did you check/replace your spark plug BTW?

It may be your carb float as the issue, actually its pretty likely so when you get the china carb we'll see!

If the china carb does nothing, well then its gotta be air or compression! You'll have to check the manifold, etc for any possible air leaks, and if this isn't the problem then buy a compression tester at an auto parts store and test compression. Compression should be around 180 PSI +/- 20 PSI. If its below 120 then this is likely the problem. Maybe valve timing/seating, blown head gasket, etc.

If the compression test runs good, then start over the whole elimination process and do it over and over again until you find the problem. You'll get it, believe me.

So today has been a very good day!

First I managed to survive my first year chem exam, then when I get out of my exam I get informed that I just got a new job!! Then, when I get home I find a little grey box sitting in the mail box, yup you guessed it! The carb arrived today too!!

I'm super temped to simply slap on this shiny new carb and give it a go but I'm gonna hold off until tomorrow so I can rebuild the old one. I don't want to ruin a good day in case the carb doesn't do the trick

Thats good! Yea don't ruin the day! My Elite ALWAYS had a way of completely ruining my day and pissing me off to hell when it was my main 2 wheel transportation!

Hopefully it'll work, but if not we'll get it sooner or later!

Well it's better to have you scooter pissing your off then a female.

Haha! Funny you mention it, cuz me and my now ex-girlfriend just broke it off 2 weeks ago, since then I've turned my full attention to the scooter... I guess if I didn't have something bitching at me I wouldn't be a man now would I?

Good point! Thats one way to think about it!

So, I just tried swapping out the float & needle annnnddd... no change

I've decided to go for broke and swap the entire carb out with the chinese one. I have no idea what to expect, but theres really only one to find out. As per the usual, the bike took a few tried to get it to run, it ran well for about a half minute then died. Now its back to turning over, giving a huff and a puff and dying again... Only other things I can think of doing to the old carb to get it to work better are to fiddle with the idle mixture screw and swap out the idle jet with the one in the new carb.

Any other ideas?

ITS WONDERFUL!! ITS... ITS.. ITS... A MIRACLE!!!!!!

It worked!!!! I put the chinese carb in and it WORKSSS!!!! It took about 3 tries to get it to start but for once it actually sounds like its operating NORMALLY! I have NO idea what is wrong with the old Honda carb (that's a project for tomorrow), but this chinese "OEM replacement" has officially knocked my socks off!! Right now the elite 150 is still on the back patio in pieces so I'm going to go button her up and see if I can take'er for a spin!

Well, at least I now know there's nothing wrong with the engine, petcock, electrical, fuel, intake manifold, valve clearance, and exhaust gasket!!! OH I am a VERY happy camper right now!!!

Thanks guys for all the support! I'll still be updating this thread with pics, info, and hopefully I can figure out what is wrong with the Honda carb so I can eventually reinstall it, but I think I'm going to just enjoy this victory for a bit and actually take this chance to ride my little scoot before tearing her apart again

WOOHOOO!!!