r1200r vs Moto guzzi 1200 sport?

Even the so called revised 4 valve Guzzi is seriously lacking in the midrange compared to the Boxer. The R12R makes more torque from 3000 rpm to redline than the Guzzi makes at peak. The Guzzi needs revs to perform (read > 5000) and is also about 10 hp down on the R12R.

Resale value will also be better on the BMW

It's down 4 hp at peak. The Guzzi 4 valve engine makes more than 60ft/lbs at the rear wheel from 2,000rpm all the way to 8,000rpm and it peaks at 75. The torque is nearly identical in both peak numbers and the curve shape on both bikes. If you overlayed a 4 valve Guzzi dyno chart with a R1200R dyno chart, the only difference you'd see is that the Guzzi makes power 1,000rpm longer than the BMW. Otherwise, they're the same.

misinformation, again....BMW fan boyz are sure good at it.

Depends on which Ducati you have, how expensive it is to maintain.

My 2V Multistrada cost $215 to have the desmo valve lash set at the dealer.

There's nothing higher maintenance about a Guzzi than there is an oilhead BMW. The same 6k mile valve lash inspection intervals, etc.

I had terrific luck with my airhead and oilheads, but they were certainly no more special in ANY regard than the Guzzis I've had.... Dealers are more plentiful.

I get the impression that most of the BMW owners replying here how much better their brand is over Moto Guzzi....have never owned a Guzzi and lived with one day to day.

^ What :eek1 Kool Aid drinking induced "facts" are being argued . I've owned both R1200R and Stelvio. They both are fantastic bikes with numbers very close on paper. Both have advantages, but cost to maintain, ease of that care and parts availability as well as reliability are a wash in my experience. My nearest BMW shop was until recently over a hundred miles away and the nearest MG shop was a fraction of that and neither were available when riding in remote parts of the country. I average 15-20K a year and put over 20K my first year on the Guzzi and never was stranded and I can say the same rate of use had the same results on my BMW and Triumphs, etc.The big twins both felt broken in after 10-15K and their thirst for petrol was within 2-3 MPG at that point. The winner in the Alps is nice, being a fraction slower isn't bad either. Traditional suspensions does give more feed back, but that doesn't mean tele/para set up are in any way bad, just different. Radial brakes with radial master cylinders via braded lines are top shelf binders period, the MG gives nothing away to BMW in this area and my BMW also stopped perfectly. They are both great bikes, but the riding experience is not on paper and my desires are not dictated by any other riders bottom line. There really are no bad bikes being offered these days and every one of them has weaker and stronger points. Ride what makes You want to get back on it as soon as you can, the rest of the factors are so close it doesn't matter.

Now I am going to finish servicing my totally improper/unacceptable/no longer sold aprilia so I can take it on a 10K jaunt to the Rockies and then New England for a Fall ride, not because it's great on paper, but because it is fun to ride on the road

Cheers all, safe travels and enjoy, life is too short

Let's do a R1200R,RT,GS comparison vs a 1200 Sport,Norge,Stelvio...
-The BM's and the Guzzis are pretty much the same when it comes to maintenance;very easy & cheap to do it
yourself.Riding experience of the 1200 boxers with the 2010 4V Guzzis is almost the same.The 4V Guzzis before
had a huge torque hole and the 2V 1200 engines had 30 hp less than the 1200 boxer.
-The Guzzi has a nice V8 like engine sound with aftermarket exhaust;stock there is no sound left.
THe BMW has with aftermarket exhaust still a nice exhaust sound like a Richthofen-biplane...
But anyways the Guzzi sounds better!
-The BMW has way more dealerships and better parts availability.It has better resale value because it appeals to
more people.It gets better mpg because the engines have the latest engine electronics and can run very lean.
And it has shorter stopping distances because of the no dive telelever front end;the R1200R is actually the bike with
the shortest stopping distance,period.
The BMW has quicker handling while the Guzzi feels "longer" in turns.
The BMW's are a little lighter than their Guzzi counterparts.
I would say the BMW is the better and therefore more common bike while the Guzzi has more emotional appeal.
But compared to japanese inline-4's the BMW boxer is still pretty emotional...
Having said that I'm still waiting for a modern LeMans.A nice aircooled 4V Guzzi with bags and ABS stand can sport & tour like the R1100S of late...
Of course that will never happen because the new owners of Guzzi at Piaggio plan to turn Guzzi into another "life-style" brand that turns out only cruisers and tourers and leave the sport to Aprilia...
But we can still dream of a modern LeMans...
Otherwise,I like Guzzi riders;mostly down to earth working class folks...

You're wrong! The curve shape is very different.The Guzzi is nowhere near flat like the R12 boxer.
90 nm @ 3000 rpm vs 90 nm (BMW)
79 nm @ 4000 rpm vs 102 nm
102 nm @ 6000 rpm vs 113 nm

The revised 4V engine has the same shape curve as the old. The difference is that the dip in the torque occurs at 4000 rpm instead of closer to 5000 rpm. No doubt an improvement, but the R12R will be a lot quicker at in-gear acceleration.

Let's see a dyno chart. Here is a 2011 Griso 8 valve. The new 8 valves have a different cam and as you can see, there is no dip. The bike literally has at least 65ft/lbs from 2200 to 8,000rpm. It peaks at 73.

Don't mix measuring units. Let's talk foot/lbs. Comparing charts from different dynos is only really meaningful to assess relative curves, not peak numbers so while it's silly to argue peak...we can certainly compare curves.
Here is a 2011 8 valve engine chart:
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/71441...Photo/2011-Moto-Guzzi-Griso-8V-SE-Review.aspx

The most recent R1200R stock dyno chart I could find was a 2007. Here it is. As I said, the curves look nearly identical.
http://www.google.com/imgres?q=r120...0&ndsp=27&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0&biw=1366&bih=673

Really? Do tell...

As for the rest of your post, that I edited out: pure partisan BS.

Nothing in the world wrong with an R12R, but to say it is hands-down better than a 1200 Sport is just your opinion.

Life is not a spec sheet. On the street, a rider's ability means more. The Guzzi is greater than the sum of its parts, and outperforms its spec sheet.

This should be relevant enough. I know I have a R12R vs Guzzi somewhere and will post if I can find it

Also you can't only look at the dyno graph but also have to factor in the rear drive ratio;
0-125 mph the R1200R takes according to MOTORRAD 13,8 sec the Griso 8V 14,2 sec...pretty close!
But roll-on from 60-180 km/h or roughly 35-112mph the BMW takes 12,9 and the Guzzi 14,6 seconds...
Also running steady at 62mph the BMW got 50 while the Guzzi 40mpg...
Wet weight was 234Kg the R and 247 Kg the Guzzi.
Having said that I love a 1973 V7 Sport,a 1976 LeMans1,a 1981 LeMans3 or MG/S01...
The last Guzzis that were really exciting were in 1996-98 the 1100 Sport I.E. or Daytona RS...I.M.H.O.
The name of the new 1200 Sport is a lie...
I hope for Guzzi they come up with some bikes as interesting and exciting as the former mentioned...

On that, we can agree...

Hello guys new update from Munich, arrived here today ...and i'm going to the dealer to take a look at the 2011 r12r and if it stops rayning these days take it for a test drive... i've been reading some more in some local boxer magazines and i can say that the community here is big and there are allot of people dealing with tuning the boxer engines and maintanence and stuff like that...
On that note i found some guys here in germany that over bore the engine of the r12r and they have seen some amazing power gains if i want that ... gains where 130 hp and 140 Nm...over stock ... the priice for the package with everything included and installing the kit is : 2850 euros .... thats are some awesome news if i ever need more power from the bike....
I just saw the first paparazzi pics of the new boxer whatercooled engine on the GS ... saw it in a magazine and they say that is due to be on the road in 2013 ... some estimations on power somwhere around 130 hp and probably in the future somwhere arround 150....
The more i read about the history of the bmw bikes and the more i see the comunity here in Germany i am more and more convinced that this is the bike for me... it is a big deal for me that i have allot of people that have the same engine and bike as i do and we can share togheter knoledge and information and all that... guzzi's are nice and probably better looking but i have no support here in germany and i think that after i test drive i can decide 100% about the bike ... but i can say that my soul is sold for now towards the r12r....
Been buying magazines and reading allot about the boxer engine and all the aftermarket support here in germany ...there are allot of experts that have upgraded parts for the engine and do maintanence for far cheaper then the dealers and they also share allot of information ...
Thanks again for all the dyno charts and all the comparrison.... after all the dyno numbers i thnk that BMW is still ahead and still has more tourque and better acceleration ... i don't plan on buying any bike only by comparring numbers and opinions about it.... test drive in my opinion is the best thing to do and see what makes me happy... and see wich one suites me better... lets see some more opinions guys ... cheers ...

Thank you for the insight over there in Germany.

My GS is my first BMW and my first boxer-based motorcycle. After some ownership of the GS, I have become a fan of the boxer motor.

The R1200R (or a variation of it) will probably be next to my GS in my garage in about a year from now. I feel it's one of the best looking and classiest roadster bikes available on the market right now. Combined with a large tank and of course a boxer motor....to me, it's everything I am looking for a road only bike.

I'm not sold on the idea for a water cooled version for the GS but for R or RT version, one can never have enough power and sounds like it will be a positive thing.

Thanks again.

Sasha have fun in Germany...
Be careful that you don't addicted to weak beer and woman that don't shave...
And don't block the left lane on the Autobahn with your 110hp R1200R.
Get the S-fairing and the 1300cc/140hp kit from Rehcing,Edelweiss or Roesner...
boxerspeedforum.de

You are trying like hell, but when you put this kind of crap up there, you lose huge chunks of credibility.

Give it a rest - you're convincing nobody.


There's many reasons the BMW line has better resale value, and your statement doesn't really address any of them.
Guzzi has always struggled for market share - it's been a company in and out of financial dire straights for decades, with a niche market and a relatively small, but loyal following.
BMW has enjoyed large market share for decades, and their bikes have always commanded decent resale compared to other European brands and the Big 4. You could have the same arguement about resale re: Aprilia, but I doubt you'd get very far arguing their quality or technology is behind the times.

With Piaggio behind Guzzi they have become as modern and sophisticated as anything on the road. I routinely get 52+mpg on my 2V 1200 Sport.

Hell, the reason I even bought my 1200 Sport was the fire sale prices on leftover bikes. I bought my '08 as a new leftover in May 2010. I knew the resale was going to blow going in...

Your arguments for why you think BMW is the better bike have just gotten stale. I hope Guzzi thrives, but I don't ever want to see as many of them on the road as I do BMW's.

I get it now.

Sasha needs to buy a Honda.

"Your arguments for why you think BMW is the better bike have just gotten stale. I hope Guzzi thrives, but I don't ever want to see as many of them on the road as I do BMW's.[/QUOTE]"

So you hope that Guzzi never has the success that BMW has had? That's the most asinine BMW hate statement that I've heard.

How do you get that as a 'BMW hate statement'?

Reading comprehension isn't everyone's strong point. I've had more BMW's than Guzzis and have enjoyed them very much - they've been great bikes.
I'm far from a Guzzi fan boy, but I appreciate them for their place in the market.

If you owned MV's, would you ever want to see as many of them on the road as you do Hondas.....or would you prefer they have a slight bit of exclusivity and not every Tom, Dick, and Harry had one?

Like I said - I hope Guzzi thrives as a company, I hope they gain marketshare and more confidence from the buying public. I also hope that the Stelvio doesn't become the poseur bike of choice, and the butt of all the Starbucks and whale foreskin riding suit jokes.
That any clearer, or still too asinine for you?