Scooters without Automatic transmissions

I'm not sure what sort of CVT you are talking about. Certainly NOT the type I have on my 2012 Burgman 650 Executive.
There is a street here in Laguna Beach, California, namely 3rd St between Mermaid and Park St, that climbs over 50 feet in a distance of 200 feet. That's about as steep as it gets. My Burgman has absolutely no problems climbing that while accelerating nicely.
I suspect the CVT's on the small displacement scooters are radically different than mine, and if you're talking about those, you may be right.

On a gentler ride, we have wonderful CA Hwy 38 that runs from Mentone to Big Bear across an 8500' elevation pass. The Burgman will cross over the top of this easily at 85mph.

.
Talking as we are about small-to-medium engined scooters :-

As far as I know, in most [or all ?] belt-CVT scooters, the range of torque multiplication is very close to the 3:1 ratio.

So if geared for peak-power revs at 60mph, then the scooter can (if operating ideally) pull peak revs/power at 20mph.
In that case, on a steep hill it will be "lugging" the engine if much below 15mph ~ and you will be wanting to change down to a lower gear . . . if available.
(Obviously that figure will be more like 10mph for a very small motor with correspondingly lower gearing.)


The problem, as Jerry has hinted, comes when [a heavy load is] is climbing a very steep incline . . . or even maybe slogging at walking speed through long stretches of soft sand . . . and the engine is reduced down to clutch-slipping speeds.
Not good for clutch life (or belt life, owing to the local heat).


Not so easy for a manufacturer to supply CVT plus two or three gears
~ most scooters sell on cheapness, rather than capabilities
~ difficult to have a robust and/or smooth-shifting multi-gear transmission at the rear hub
~ scooter riders are attracted by the "gearless" mindset, and a good many would soon trash the hub gearbox by clumsy/clueless gear changes . . . and the brand gets a reputation for unreliability & expensive repairs.



Otherwise, a multi-gear CVT would be grand for tackling extreme conditions.
Is there a way around this problem?

[Fitting a hydraulic torque converter plus CVT ~ as found in many modern cars ~ is probably ruled out by expense and space/volume considerations.]
.

I understand what you're saying, Jerry. I would like to see a CVT with a manual override; either factory (on something with a dual-sportish character like a Honda Ruckus) or an aftermarket add-on kit.
Think about it. Some lawn tractors use a manually controlled CVT where the further you push a lever or pedal, the faster it goes. The same thing could be done (inversely) on an automatic CVT with a lever pushing on the driven pulley via a throwout bearing. That way you could ride normally most of the time, but when you need more pulling power just push down on a pedal to force the CVT into a lower ratio.
This wouldn't involve any additional gearing; it would just counteract the spring pressure in the CVT.

Sounds interesting, but I think I am more interest in a small displacement scoot. I need to test ride some other models. The Madass 125 sounds interesting.

The deal with a motorcycle with a clutch is that I can "pulse" or "feather" the clutch to effectuate a slow take off when I need to in heavy traffic
(lane splitting) or off road. I sure with more practice I could get comfortable operating a CVT. I just have very limited experience.

A propos of not very much as I live in the flatlands I am really looking forward to getting my Vespa P200 back from the restorers. I am a fan of old fangled, at least I was thirty years ago when it was new fangled. CVT seems like it puts too much stress on the belt. And then it snapped on my wife's ET4and I coasted to a stop! I knew I should have replaced it...

Harleys and a number of other large heavy bikes use belts, and they seem to do ok on steep grades. Belts have been known to break, but so have chains. To me the weak point on a scooter CVT, especially on a small scooter, is the extremely limited gear range between the top and the bottom, compared to a manual transmission. That leaves you trying to climb a steep grade in a gear that is way too high, and that seriously overloads the entire drivetrain.

Now many people will say, why are you trying to climb a steep hill on such a small scooter anyway? The thing is it shouldn't be a problem. 8 hp will pull a ton of weight up a steep hill, IF it is geared low enough. 50cc and 2 hp pull me up steep hills with no problems. Yes it's VERY slow going. But with that little engine spinning at 9000 rpm, it will climb all day without hurting anything,

Many people here have said that a 50cc scooter will not climb a steep hill. That is true. But only because of the CVT. A 50cc scooter has twice the hp of my 50cc moped, so it should have no problem climbing any hill where there is a road. It has the power, it just doesn't have the gearing. My little moped is geared like a tractor in first gear. It would probably pull a tree out of the ground if it had the traction.


Like I've said about a zillion times, if you have a motorcycle or a manual transmission car/truck, take it and try to climb a steep hill, a couple of gears too high. You'll run into the exact same problem you do while trying to climb a steep hill on a small displacement CVT scooter. Only with the scooter, downshifting is not an option. You are stuck in to high a gear.

If what you say is true, then explain to me why my Super 8 with it's CVT transmission climbs steep hills with no problems?

Because he doesn't know what he is talking about.

Because not all CVTs OR scooters are built the same. Your Super8 150 actually has less torque and horsepower than my PCX 125, but it likely handles hills better because it has lower gearing.

This has NOTHING to do with the CVT even -- we're talking about raw gear ratios. Let's imagine the Vino Jerry has or the PCX I have are manuals, and so is your Super 8. Your Super 8's 1st gear might be 1:2.5, whereas our 1st gear sits somewhere closer to 1:2 or 1:1.5. Does that make more sense? To clarify, our lowest attainable gear ratio lugs the engine in a lower RPM range than yours would at the same speed.


I experience the same slowness up mountains on my PCX, and it's really frustrating considering how light I am.

Went for a ride up some really steep hills yesterday. In a couple of places it bogged down to around 30MPH. As soon as the grade eased slightly it would accelerate to a higher speed. I suppose if I weighed another 50 lbs and was at an elevation of 8000' or so, I might experience the same thing that Jerry has. An easy fix would be some sliders to increase the RPMs at lower speeds.

Remember, small scooters are really designed for smaller, lighter riders, probably 150 lbs or less. However, even for my 175 lbs, my Super 8 works well 99.99% of the time.

I have lived in 10 different states and ridden in most of them. In my opinion, Alabama has some of the steepest paved roads in the country. So far my Super 8 has not failed me yet on any of the hills I've ridden.

My PCX has never outright failed, but I've gotten speeds of less than 20mph up roads in NC or North GA. For what it's worth, I weigh 152lbs...

There is a long steep climb less than 30 miles from my house. It's about 5 miles long. I don't know what the elevation difference between the top and bottom is, I'll have to take the GPS and check it. But it is the kind of climb that has loaded tractor trailer rigs crawling along at about 15 mph in first gear the whole way. My Vulcan 750 will do it in top gear without losing any speed. My XT225 requires second gear to avoid lugging the engine, and it slows way down. The Stella is actually between gears, but it is happiest if you back off the throttle a little and climb in first. It lugs just a little in second at WOT. And it has a cheap Indian made crankshaft. So I prefer to keep it spinning. Bicyclists climb this hill all the time. In first gear, standing on the pedals. A few bicycle riders have been seriously injured and killed by trying to coast down. You can easily reach some ridiculous speeds that way and let it get away from you. This is a long steep hill with a lot of curves. Remember I weigh 230 and am on a 125 scooter.

I am surprised by the trouble I see in here about belts. Our old CH 125 is still on the same belt after 29 years. It hasn't been driven all that time, only about 12,000 miles, but I have never removed the belt cover, never adjusted the valves, and it has been ridden double much of its modest life. Runs pretty much like new.

12,000 miles is about the average life of a belt. I'd replace it if it is still available. It may still look good, but a belt can only take so much stress before it develops weak spots. It is unlikely to show cracks or other signs of deterioration, because it has been in that CVT case the whole time, away from sunlight.

People make a big deal about tires as well. Yet I have used the original 40 year old spare tire that came with one of my vintage cars with no problems at all. It looks brand new. And it is a belted tire (non radial). I put it on the right front with a radial on the left, and did not notice anything wrong. I drove it for over 2 months that way before I found a new tire of the right size.

youtube has video of 'scootstars' a pair of guys riding some chinese scooters they bought at pepboys (or somesuch place) and...one outright died in utah (or colorado) and the other 20 miles outside omaha, they couldn't get parts and I left the series while they where waiting....the belts broke at 2000 miles on the dot. watch the videos yourself, something to think about....part availability.

I had the Madass 125, it was a fun little bike, you can scrape pegs on roundabouts as it handes so well. Mine started to fall apart at over 12000kms but I had one of the first ones in Oz (2006). Later ones might be better.

Luggage carrying is not good. I usually just went with a backpack.

The front is soft and the rear is too hard stock. The front was better with different weight oil.

I am seeing more riders carrying backpacks because late model bikes and scooters have no luggage space. Do they save a few bucks by making these vehicles nearly useless? :huh

It's all about "style". The number one function of a motorcycle designer is to make the bike look good so it will sell. That fact that the current "style" results in no luggage space, difficulty in mounting luggage, and an uncomfortable seat is not a concern since it is something the buyer will have to deal with. IMO, scooter designers do a better job making practical machines than motorcycle designers. The average scooter does have some luggage space and most scooter seats are more comfortable than most motorcycle seats.

Most "new" motorcycles lack a lot of things that made older one practical. Most new bikes come without centerstands, even though a lot of them still have tube type tires and chain drive. New bikes do not have kickstarters. What happens when the battery goes dead? On the other hand, most are now fuel injected (which most owners cannot work on) and can't be kick started with a dead battery anyway, no power to run the fuel pump. And what about the greatest bike accessory of all, the highback rack. Anybody remember those? They were a fairly large luggage rack/backrest combination that you could get for almost all '60s, '70s, and '80 bikes. I had many of them. Those, along with centerstands, kickstarters, and carbs, made for some very practical bikes. Oh, and don't forget seats. Most of those older bikes had long, wide, flat seats that were very comfortable, and 2 up riding could even be done on smaller bikes.

I stopped at a Hon/Kaw/Suz/Yam dealer today and looked around. I saw virtually nothing that interested me. The seats on at least 70% of the bikes were horrible. Passenger seats? Maybe 10% had a decent passenger seat. This is why Corbin, Sargent and other custom seat makers are in business.

On the other hand, I was at my local Kymco/KTM dealer yesterday and they had several bikes I'd love to have.

Luckily, most scooters still come with centerstands and tubeless tires. My Kymco even has a back up kickstarter.

Neither of my motorcycles has a center stand but I found and easy way around that.