Countersteering confusion : (

There is a reason why California Superbike School had to make the No B.S. bike. If they didn't need to teach people how to counter-steer at their school then they wouldn't need it.

Even though you may have never been "taught" counter-steering you still have a fundamental understanding of it that you figured out on your own (like many riders). The fact that you know what counter-steering is in general proves that. The problem is there are still WAY TO MANY riders out there who have no idea what counter-steering is and they don't have that understanding. They literally don't have any accurate idea as to how they turn a motorcycle! That's why it needs to be taught to ensure safer riding and/or faster riding. Not everyone needs to know the theories behind it but everyone does need to understand it to ride safe.

I didn't know anything about how a motorcycle steers or how is stays stable for most of my riding experience. When I did start teaching myself about how motorcycles work it gave me more confidence with my riding. On the track my mind set completely changed from "I need to control this thing!" into "The bike takes care of itself, I just need to point it in the right direction." That change in mindset and confidence let me ride loose but in control and knocked seconds off of my times around the motocross track from the point I was stuck at for a while. It helped me become a much safer rider on the street especially on the fun twisty roads.

To continue the argument of the importance of training and learning about counter steering:

The counter steering scenario I'm discussing is NOT the one action that starts the lean and will initiate the curve (the counter steering most riders don't even know they do), but the counter steering action needed to make trajectory corrections while already in the curve (the one you and others claim is not necessary for people to learn) or to swerve from an obstacle ahead. I'm going to quote here select findings from the old Hurt report:

"Motorcycle riders in (...) accidents showed significant collision avoidance problems. Most riders would over-brake and skid the rear wheel, and under-brake the front wheel greatly reducing collision avoidance deceleration. The ability to countersteer and swerve was essentially absent."

"In the single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slide-out and fall due to over-braking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering."

"The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents."

I have taught my 5 year old how to ride a bicycle, and am teaching my 2.5 year old how to ride a bike. I can firmly say, without a doubt , countersteering is not intuitive.

People figure it out, the majority don't even know they are doing it, but there's nothing intuitive about it.

quote from somewhere idk

"While this appears to be a complex sequence of motions, it is performed by every child who rides a bicycle. The entire sequence goes largely unnoticed by most riders, which is why some assert that they do not do it"

Fixed.

Some people learn by doing, some people learn by discussing, everyone improves with practice. It's why racers watch videos of themselves. So they can get feedback and improve.

Teach a man about counter steering, and he might get it right when that decreasing radius turn comes up, and he has to choose between shitting himself or pushing on the the bars. He'll know which one is more effective at making a motorcycle go around a turn.

A new rider, a returning rider or even a long time "seldom" rider should be taught what to do and how to counteract that human condition we ALL have when their heart starts racing as they enter a turn at and for whatever reason they perceive that they are going to fast.

To counteract this human condition you COUNTERsteer. If not you succumb to it... Target fixate and things go bad.

Counter steering should be both taught and practiced to the point that it IS an automatic response.

All you people that are saying JUST DO IT are assholes that are going to get people hurt or worse with your shit advice.

Here they teach the learners course without teaching the theory of countersteering by just teaching learners to "point their head where they want to go". This automatically means that people are leaning on that bar and countersteering even if they don't know it. Riders find out later they are doing it and why countersteering works.

Teaching the theory seems it would just confuse people.

those people can not tighten the radius because they are scared of lean angle or scared of washing out (or scared in some other way because they got into a situation they didn't expect) not because they don't know how to turn. they COULD turn tighter if they knew that would be the best solution. that's where the problem is, people can not cope with those situations, but it has nothing to do with their (non-)ability to turn a bike.

in most of those cases ABS would be an effective solution, but there's still too many bikes without ABS on the roads.

Two words TRACK DAY!

Here's the reality. I learned to ride a bicycle when I was 4. I have ridden either a bicycle or motorcycle or both since. I was over 30 when I first even heard the word countersteer, even though I had been doing it for over 25 years. Why did I not have my first road crash until I was 40, after I had learned what countersteering was? (Hint, the crash wasn't entirely my fault other than not paying attention to other traffic as much as I should have).

Here's the answer. I've been taking curves since I was on the Honda ct70, as I was taught by my uncle, by slowing, looking and accelerating. A few "pucker" moments early on taught me to practice more and increase my speed in corners only as my ability increased and to use a speed that allowed me to avoid rocks, sand, and vehicles crossing the double yellow. Consiously countersteering never entered the picture.

posts 906-912 hit it square. after that not so much. I really think the "don't teach it crowd " doesn't know it. they think they do ,but they don't.

I disagree(just a little) with the track day advice. at a track day you would be learning to be smoother, faster, kiss the mirrors, brake in and accelerate out etc. all great things to get better at, but, what needs to be practiced on the street is automatic ,reflex response.
the rider needs to swerve without having to move the upper body or weight the pegs(which is nonsense on the street anyway), this is not something that is typically practiced at a track day. also repetition is key, one day 2 or 3 times a year isn't going to cut it.
the local LEO may not like it, but swerving down a empty highway for mile after mile is the best way to build muscle memory.

Perhaps one of motorcyclings challenges you have yet to accomplish is riding backwards.

What don't I know? I know that physics require countersteering and, just like gravity, physics works wether I understand it or not. Anyone who can change direction on a motorcycle at speed (I think it's something like 5 or 6 mph where this kicks is) is countersteering. They don't need to know they are, they just are.

They need to know to turn their heads and look through the curve. They don't need to know the physics behind it. The less a new rider has cluttering their head, the clearer they are when practicing and riding. That is nothing but a good thing.

the saying is "you can't know what you don't know"
countersteering in the way any single track vehicle steers the instant you pick your feet off the ground. there is no "speed" at which it kicks in.
while looking where you want to go probably makes a rider countersteer it isn't going to do the job when there is no time to turn the head and look. when what's called for is a quick yank on the bars.
also push and pull should be equally easy. I.E. a sharp swerve and recovery should be automatic with either hand.
I can't help but think you are sure you know how to aggressively counteersteer but you really don't . like several people have said in this thread , they rode for years but only thought they knew what they were doing.

why are you so dead set on this not being important ?

If it is so easy, why did that guy go wide in the corner on the Dragon and go flying over that vehicles hood??? Countersteering in a panic situation doesn't come naturally. You have to understand it to be able to use it when you need it most. And you are countersteering balancing on the pegs at a standstill. It doesn't " Kick" in at 5 mph.

WOW! I find it hard to believe this thread is STILL going and going and going (like the pink bunny).

I rode and rode and rode bicycles growing up and put more miles on them then any other kid I know. But, for the most part, I do not believe that I spent enough time at speed where counter steering was required.

There are a LOT of good videos showing that counter steering is NOT required to turn a two wheeled vehicle at all speeds.

My favorite video is in this thread and is "counter weighting vs counter steering" and it is my favorite so far because it presents the issues going on so well.

Like a spinning top on its point, the top does not come to a complete stop in it's spinning before the spinning is not enough to keep it upright.

Counter steering on my small DR200 happens between 25-30 mph and seems to be affected by my placement of my heavy ass on the bike.

If I want to turn really sharp at low speeds, I MUST counter weight.

Counter steering is a REALLY EASY way to counter for high speed wind gusts on either side while riding highway speeds.

My friend told me that I counter weight when he thinks I should counter steer. Maybe I have a better "feel" for what the gyroscopes are doing at the speed I'm going???

I'd like to see someone ride the the "No BS Bike" without any hands on either set of "bars". Maybe some type of electronic cable control where the rider can have their hands in the air and still command the throttle, clutch, and brakes.

I think limiting, and locking down, the body mass of a person by having them hold onto fixed bars is affecting how that rider would normally counter weight.

The top falls over before the top stops spinning completely; there is a point of uncertainty.

Why don't snowmobiles fall over when stopped?

Maybe for the same reason that they don't have to bank to turn?

Bikes must lean to turn.
The rider must force that lean because the bike is perfectly happy being vertical.

Like a judoka (Judo practitioner) does to an adversary, the rider must throw the bike out of balance.
He has several ways to achieve that: have a friend kick the bike sideways, move his weight over and wait or use the handy and powerful steering bar for a more immediate throw.

The simplicity of the physics have been revealed.

Perhaps if the countersteering zealots we able to measure their dogma with this relevation much of their confusion would be relieved.

And what is this mythical speed in your opinion?

Hint The ONLY correct answer is: Moving forward

If you were moving... You WERE COUNTERSTEERING!

If you believe this (25-30 mph bullshit) you are a fool.

Confuse? OK, compare this:

"Point their head where they want to go".
and
"Push the handgrip where they want to go".

There, it is even the same amount of words.
That learners course over there does not do its students any favor.