Help with brakes...I'm at a total loss

Alright, I apologize for the length, but I've tried to cover any possible question at the outset. I've posted this on a couple of forums already, but no solution. I've tried to ignore the problem for a while now, but after trying out some bikes at the local dealership, just how bad my brakes are became glaringly apparent. The bike in question is a 2004 Suzuki SV650S with a little over 20K miles. Anyway, here goes:

Essentially, the problem is that I must pull the brake lever quite a ways before I get anything close to enough braking force to begin slowing the bike down. If I had to estimate, assuming we use 100% as the total lever travel before hitting the bar, I must pull around 30-40% before I feel resistance, perhaps more. There are a few things I want to dispel and some background on what's been done:

1. I'm BEYOND confident that there is no air in the system. The brakes have been bled on numerous occasions and I've just sent nearly a liter of fluid through the system during a bleed about an hour ago to reconfirm before posting this. No change.

2. The brakes do NOT pump up. Again, this isn’t a mushy lever we’re talking about; it’s not a simple as air in the lines. Also, the brake rotors aren't warped and the issue remains regardless of if the bike is in motion or stationary.

3. Actual brake pressure is good once you pull the lever back far enough, and it feels nice and firm. It's a pre-travel issue, not a sponginess issue.

4. Brake lines have been replaced with Galfer stainless lines and a banjo bleeder to help get air out of the master cylinder. I've bled in every order under the sun, tapped calipers and lines to free any stuck bubbles, etc. No improvement.

5. Calipers have been overhauled. Pistons are nice and shiny with no etching or pitting. The caliper seal and dust seals have been replaced with OEM Suzuki units. A caliper seal replacement was suggested by a user in a long thread I read on the UK SV forums who was having a similar issue as me. Also, I took the time to clean out the channels that the piston seals and dust seals reside in. Worked for him, no improvement for me.

6. Also on the topic of the pistons, I’ve tried re-assembly with brake fluid per the manual and using the caliper grease method. I’ve not notice any difference in my problem.

7. Tried zip-tieing the lever back overnight as a last ditch effort to eradicate air from the lines. No improvement.

8. Triumph owners have had similar issue on some of their bikes, and a one remedy is to pull the calipers and work the pistons in and out a few times, and then reinstall them. This has the resulted in getting the travel right where I want it and how it feels on other bikes I've ridden, but the effects disappear anywhere from a week to just a few days.

9. Hilltop sacrifices to the gods of motorcycle brakes didn't work.

What the hell is going on here? It seems as though the pistons are being retracted too far when the brake lever is released. This is usually attributed to old piston seals grabbing the pistons too tightly, but mine have been changed out, and the ones I replaced were great condition. I guess the only thing left looking at is the master cylinder or calipers, but I wanted to hear some thoughts before I go throwing money at them too. Thank you in advance for your time.

Get a new master cylinder (they almost give them away on fleabay).

If you're feeling very intrepid, get a radial Nissin off a late model gsxr600 or zx6r.

Report back.

You ever tried force filling from the bottom? Its amazing the bubbles that come out of the MC after you think its all bled!

Tried that.

If there's still air stuck in these lines, it's magic, sentient air the likes of which man has never encountered.

Again, the lever is NOT "mushy," the brakes do NOT pump up. I'm not trying to come across as a dick or anything, I appreciate everyone taking time to help, but I just need for you guys to trust that I've done everything to eradicate air from the lines. I'm looking at other potential solutions, or what other parts I need to look at replacing. I've spent countless hours and money fumbling with brake fluid and various bleeding methods, including a vacuum bleeder.

I'll check around on eBay for prices on masters. With a radial unit, isn't the banjo fitting usually in a different orientation? I'm wondering if my current brake lines would work, or if they'd be bent over in a funny direction. Should I even be looking at the 20 dollar rebuild kits for the master?

I installed a radial M/C from a GSX-R 1000 on my 955 Daytona and there was absolutely no problem with the brake lines.

This is a long shot but i did this on an old harley.The pushrod between the lever and master was lengthened by inserting a washer between the shoulder and the lever. Dont know the mechanicals of your system but check if you can make the pushrod longer or space the lever out more.

Is this a new to you bike?

I ask as that sounds exactly like the brakes on my SV with only 6k miles on it. You describe, if I understand it, what seems to be normal for that bike in my experience.

Bike-to-bike-bike, across my fleet, none of them feel the same. My old 86 interceptor and the SV seems the sloppiest. My XT225 the tightest. YMMV. Just saying. I have installed stainless lines too as part of a bar upgrade when I needed longer lines.

Sounds like you need a new master cylinder, and adjustable levers. Should be good then!

The bike is relatively new to me, and was purchased at around 10K miles about a year ago. The lever travel has most certainly not always been like this, but has been progressively getting worse the last few months. The lever started out relatively fine, with braking action starting shortly after the audible click of the brake light switch. However, the past few months have shown a rapid decline in brake lever feel, and have started showing the symptoms listed above.

I already have 6 position adjustable levers, and I have to keep them at level 3 (nearly full out), otherwise I'll crush my fingers under heavy braking. I have no issue with lever position, but rather the lever pre-travel. However, you are yet another that has mentioned that the master cylinder may be suspect. I'll certainly be looking around for a replacement.

I've heard this suggested on another forum, but the general consensus was that doing so could adversely affect the braking system to the point that they might not release properly once you stop applying pressure to the lever. I don't know if that consensus is bullshit or not, but I don't feel comfortable modifying the master cylinder piston in such a manner.

I'd like to thank you all again for your responses, and I'm sorry to taking so long to reply; I just got back in town.

One last question, about the master cylinder: I'm a "why" kind of guy, and I'm curious as to why several of you think the master cylinder is at fault? Is it a process of elimination, or is this some kind of known issue that sometimes arises when masters are going out?

Along those lines, Brembo Master Cylinders have a screw adjuster for this on the brake lever. It contacts the pushrod for the cylinder.

Got it, all good. Best of luck.

So you have a firm lever, it just has a lot of travel? Is that right?

Firm lever, however there is a lot of pre-travel; nearly half the stroke at times it seems before I feel resistance.

I can't speak to the SVs specifically, but the GSXRs are known to have spotty master cylinders. The race teams are known to just try out numerous master cylinders and throw out the ones that are dodgy. Why don't they just use Brembos? Because changing master cylinders changes race classes. I've had the exact problem you describe with my 08 GSXR 750 more than once.

Anyway, I'd try rebuilding the master. You might find that, like me, it works for a little while, but then goes bad again. If you don't have any restrictions on what you can run on your bike, I'd just replace it with an aftermarket unit.

Just a shot in the dark here... but might you have a bad spot in the brake lines??

For instance, the line expands before building pressure well... thus causing you to use more lever travel than normal... then contracts back after use so that the brake fluid never settles to a tighter position???

I know... it's a FAR shot... just throwing out ideas of something that wouldn't be "normal".

Thank you for this info; it feels good knowing I'm not alone with this issue (or crazy). The only restrictions on what I add to my bike are my budget, so while I'd absolutely love to toss on a radial Brembo unit, I simply can't afford that at the moment. I'm kind of keen on finding a donor master from another bike. Kind of hard finding decent deals on them on eBay at the moment it seems, unless I'm just a cheap bastard with unrealistic expectations.

Haha, I appreciate just about any response that doesn't say, "I'd try bleeding the brakes again." Whenever I bring this question up, people tend to dismiss what I'm saying and insist on sticking with their "air in the lines" hypothesis. I've gotten much better responses here, and I thank you all.

Anyway, this issue existed before the braided lines were added. So, for this to be the case, the OEM lines and the Galfer braided lines would both have to be suspect.

And you're getting decent braking power? Sorry, just asking questions to make sure I understand.

Yes, this is correct.

I don't have any particular issues with braking power. Though, brake modulation can be a bit tricky since you're not always sure how much pre-travel you'll have to go through before the pads begin making contact with the discs.

i'll agree with the master cylinder comments

Are you perhaps new to motorcycles in general? All four fingers belong on the lever, sure, cover with two to improve your response time, but then move the rest of your fingers to the lever when it's get serious time.