ADVrider

Go Back   ADVrider > Gear > Equipment
User Name
Password
Register Inmates Photos Site Rules Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-22-2010, 05:51 AM   #256
ZZR_Ron
Underground
 
ZZR_Ron's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada
Oddometer: 8,025
I'm surprised you need heated gear in Texas! I don't really get your weather
here, but thought it never really got cold there.
__________________
Great minds think alike;small minds seldom differ...
ZZR_Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2010, 07:16 AM   #257
ONandOFF
-ROAD-
 
ONandOFF's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Shenandoah Valley riding wonderland
Oddometer: 5,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by KEN PHENIX
Thanks for documenting this. I hope to experiment with heated stuff. For my control circuit, I'll look for a modern PWM controller chip to drive a MOSFET instead of an old 555 with a low slew rate. RDSon is only one factor in the heat equation, the other being turn-on and turn-off times where the device is transitioning and the IE product can become high.
__________________
Let's ride!!! - No offense, but there've been a lot of people over time who were just as sure, yet got it wrong. - Una necedad, aunque la repitan millones de bocas, no deja de ser una necedad. - "you know that I could have me a million more friends and all I'd have to lose is my point of view" (Prine)
ONandOFF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2010, 08:30 AM   #258
worwig
Lost in Georgia
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Oddometer: 1,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONandOFF
Thanks for documenting this. I hope to experiment with heated stuff. For my control circuit, I'll look for a modern PWM controller chip to drive a MOSFET instead of an old 555 with a low slew rate. RDSon is only one factor in the heat equation, the other being turn-on and turn-off times where the device is transitioning and the IE product can become high.
The 555 can operate into the hundreds of kilohertz. And they have a strong output drive that can quickly charge the gate capacitance. Fast enough that the mosfet speed itself can become inefficient. Why do you want anything faster? Or better yet, run it at a slow rate so that switching loses become invisible.

On mine I did something totally bizzare and used the 555 to drive a relay. It has a switching speed around 5 seconds. But if you look at the specs for the relay driving a resistive load, it will last for decades. I did this so I could use it on my Widder equipment that does not have a polarized connector. It doesn't care which way you plug in the controller, it works. Been working for about 15 years.
__________________
Hog mountain Weather
worwig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2010, 09:07 AM   #259
Mikef5000
Beastly Adventurer
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Columbus, OH
Oddometer: 2,030
When I recieve my 1 piece suit next month I'm thinking about adding some wiring to the quilted liner. Mainly across the chest and back a couple times and then down across the knees.

It should be a fun experiment!
__________________
2008 990 Adventure
2008 WR250R
www.Mikef5000.com
Mikef5000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2010, 10:01 AM   #260
GHO100
Crazy George
 
GHO100's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Brooklyn
Oddometer: 1,022
I'll be attempting my first projects this winter, and could use some basic power diagram help.

I will probably be buying one or two of these:



Link: http://www.1topstore.com/product_inf...ducts_id=12093


I know the general pattern for sewing the wire into the clothing and gloves, but how do I add the connecting wires for the gloves to my liner or jacket? Do I run seperate wires, or splice into the jacket's wires?

I would think that if I splice into the jacket, then the gloves will get heat, but the wattage going to the jacket will decreas beacuse I'm essentially adding length to the resistance wire in the jacket.

So, if any of you could help me with a basic diagram for hooking this up, I'd really appreciate it!

TIA
__________________
2012 BMW R1200GS
1980 Suzuki GS850G (project)
www.TeslaLEDS.com
www.NYMSTF.org - Support NY Riders!
GHO100 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2010, 10:34 AM   #261
KEN PHENIX
"CERTIFIABLE"
 
KEN PHENIX's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: SOUTHEAST TEXAS
Oddometer: 625
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZR_Ron
I'm surprised you need heated gear in Texas! I don't really get your weather
here, but thought it never really got cold there.
I just don the electrics when the temp gets down in the mid 40's instead of guessing how many layers I'll need for the day.
I'll plug in the insoles below the freezing mark. My record low is 17f and I was totally toasty.

I own a small business and the only time I can be sure to get away is the 2 or 3 weeks after Christmas when the shop is closed / not busy. So far I have toured 12 states, all in winter.



http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=549670
__________________
Ken Phenix
IBA #47092
The 919 Transalp Project
KatanaBandit (sold)
smugmug pics



KEN PHENIX screwed with this post 10-22-2010 at 10:40 AM
KEN PHENIX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2010, 11:32 AM   #262
ZZR_Ron
Underground
 
ZZR_Ron's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada
Oddometer: 8,025
Quote:
Originally Posted by KEN PHENIX
I just don the electrics when the temp gets down in the mid 40's instead of guessing how many layers I'll need for the day.
I'll plug in the insoles below the freezing mark. My record low is 17f and I was totally toasty.

I own a small business and the only time I can be sure to get away is the 2 or 3 weeks after Christmas when the shop is closed / not busy. So far I have toured 12 states, all in winter.



http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=549670
AHHHH...I guess that explains it! I find a certain exhilaration riding in the cold weather, but usually don't ride if it gets below -20C. Something surreal about riding a bike, and wathcin g the snowbanks go by....

__________________
Great minds think alike;small minds seldom differ...
ZZR_Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2010, 11:45 AM   #263
ONandOFF
-ROAD-
 
ONandOFF's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Shenandoah Valley riding wonderland
Oddometer: 5,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by worwig
...Or better yet, run it at a slow rate so that switching loses become invisible. ...

... used the 555 to drive a relay. ...
It's not the switching frequency itself that causes the switching loss, but rather it's the time it takes to go from full on to full off and vice versa. As you stated, gate charging/discharging current is one consideration; another is the speed (or slope when graphed) of the driving waveform. That's where the 555 would likely fall short of a modern controller chip. But sure, a lower switching frequency will put the device through the switching loss transition less often, heating the device less yet it is still possible to toast a device with a single transition if the current*voltage product exceeds the safe operating area (SOA). Another potential advantage of a controller chip over the 555 is the ability to feed back and regulate the output voltage. It would be easier to add a temperature variable to the error voltage as well.

Nothing wrong with the relay except perhaps the space it may take up in comparison. In reality, there will be some inductance associated with the wire, in addition to the resistance. Depending on how it's run, that component could be notable or negligent. Inductance can cause arcing on contact opening thus reducing relay contact life. A snubber circuit (a capacitor in series with a resistor) across the contacts can absorb the inductive current spike and reduce arcing.

With the thermal time constants involved with heated gear, there's no need to cycle frequently. But if using a solid state switch, it IS important to switch QUICKLY, because power will be dissipated as the device transitions through the linear mode (as it must on every transition).
__________________
Let's ride!!! - No offense, but there've been a lot of people over time who were just as sure, yet got it wrong. - Una necedad, aunque la repitan millones de bocas, no deja de ser una necedad. - "you know that I could have me a million more friends and all I'd have to lose is my point of view" (Prine)
ONandOFF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2010, 03:58 PM   #264
worwig
Lost in Georgia
 
Joined: Nov 2009
Oddometer: 1,009
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONandOFF
But if using a solid state switch, it IS important to switch QUICKLY, because power will be dissipated as the device transitions through the linear mode (as it must on every transition).
Yes, I was trying to say that at slow switching rates, you have the switching dissipation spike less often.
At a one second rate, a 5 watt spike that lasts 1us is meaningless. That should average out to 5/1,000,000 of a watt, or nothing. But up the rate to 100KHz, and it has an impact.

One thought I had was to use a PIC controller. I currently use one for a driving light dimmer. If the battery voltage drops (ie, sitting at a red light) it dims the driving lights using a PWM circuit, to save the battery. I was thinking of doing something like that for the controller. Let the PIC do the work, and at low voltage, it could turn down the electric gear to save the battery. Turn it into a software problem.
__________________
Hog mountain Weather
worwig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-22-2010, 08:50 PM   #265
KEN PHENIX
"CERTIFIABLE"
 
KEN PHENIX's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: SOUTHEAST TEXAS
Oddometer: 625
A simple way to stop battery drain at idle is to run power to the heated gear through a double throw relay actuated by the brake light circuit.
__________________
Ken Phenix
IBA #47092
The 919 Transalp Project
KatanaBandit (sold)
smugmug pics


KEN PHENIX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 06:52 AM   #266
ZZR_Ron
Underground
 
ZZR_Ron's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2004
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario, Canada
Oddometer: 8,025
Once again,if you use the transistor in the diagram, there will be negligible loss.

Parts are cheap, if you are going to get really technical, you may as well just buy a controller.

Hey, i'm a KLR owner!
__________________
Great minds think alike;small minds seldom differ...
ZZR_Ron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 11:38 AM   #267
65 Flathead
Gnarly Adventurer
 
65 Flathead's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Central Louisiana
Oddometer: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by GHO100
I'll be attempting my first projects this winter, and could use some basic power diagram help.

I will probably be buying one or two of these:



Link: http://www.1topstore.com/product_inf...ducts_id=12093


I know the general pattern for sewing the wire into the clothing and gloves, but how do I add the connecting wires for the gloves to my liner or jacket? Do I run seperate wires, or splice into the jacket's wires?

I would think that if I splice into the jacket, then the gloves will get heat, but the wattage going to the jacket will decreas beacuse I'm essentially adding length to the resistance wire in the jacket.

So, if any of you could help me with a basic diagram for hooking this up, I'd really appreciate it!

TIA
This is a year old post, but it may answer some of your questions. I rode nearly eery day las winter with this set up and other than poor quality coaxial connections, on the glove harness it worked great.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=514532
__________________
Beware of the dangers of lawmaking!
65 Flathead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-23-2010, 11:47 AM   #268
65 Flathead
Gnarly Adventurer
 
65 Flathead's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Location: Central Louisiana
Oddometer: 102
Oh, and this

Heat Controller

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showt...7#post11220457
__________________
Beware of the dangers of lawmaking!
65 Flathead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 07:45 AM   #269
ONandOFF
-ROAD-
 
ONandOFF's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2009
Location: Shenandoah Valley riding wonderland
Oddometer: 5,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by worwig
...a 5 watt spike that lasts 1us is meaningless. That should average out to 5/1,000,000 of a watt...
The average power dissipation value is useful for determining heat sinking requirements but the concept of SOA is being overlooked here. The instantaneous power during the switching transition can be the fate of the switch. First, the static conditions. When the switch is open, no power is being dissipated within. When the switch is closed, the power dissipated is given as IE, or I^2R. For example, if a switch with an on-resistance of 0.1 Ohms is driving 100W of heated gear, the approx. 8A will dissipate a bit over 6W in the switch. But what happens when this switch opens? It goes from the low on-resistance to infinite resistance over a finite time period. Take the case where the resistance of the switch passes through the value of the load resistance. Now half the source voltage is across the switch and half the full load current is flowing. At this point, using the conditions of the previous example, the switch is having to dissipate some 25W. The problem is that if the instantaneous power dissipation in the switch exceeds its SOA, it can go on strike! So where the simple static case would indicate certain device parameters being adequate for the task, a SOA analysis could indicate otherwise.
__________________
Let's ride!!! - No offense, but there've been a lot of people over time who were just as sure, yet got it wrong. - Una necedad, aunque la repitan millones de bocas, no deja de ser una necedad. - "you know that I could have me a million more friends and all I'd have to lose is my point of view" (Prine)
ONandOFF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-25-2010, 06:07 PM   #270
cwc
Studly Adventurer
 
Joined: Jan 2005
Location: anywhere
Oddometer: 894
Quote:
Originally Posted by ONandOFF
The problem is that if the instantaneous power dissipation in the switch exceeds its SOA, it can go on strike! So where the simple static case would indicate certain device parameters being adequate for the task, a SOA analysis could indicate otherwise.
Notwithstanding the above I've been using a 555 with a relatively low on-resistance FET for over 20 years to drive Widder and Aerostich vests as well as grips with no failures to date.

Now I want to make a couple of more controllers and I'd like to use something like the BTS730, but I can't find a source for it.

Data sheet here http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/data...n/1-bts730.pdf

Any help on that or a similar device?
__________________
Charlie

DR350 It'll get you there

My Ride Reports Here
cwc is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Share

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


Times are GMT -7.   It's 07:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ADVrider 2011-2014