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Old 11-07-2011, 09:41 AM   #56491
ag_streak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaSteve View Post

It was closer to .024 (,020 is the service limit)
Steve, I know approximately jack shit about rings and engine work, but if the service limit is .020" and yours is at .024", that's 20% over. Isn't that a reason to replace?
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Old 11-07-2011, 09:43 AM   #56492
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaSteve View Post

It was closer to .024 (,020 is the service limit)
Steve, I know approximately jack shit about rings and engine work, but if the service limit is .020" and yours is at .024", that's 20% over. Isn't that a reason to replace?

EDIT: Re-read your post... I see you are planning to replace the ring... nevermind!
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Old 11-07-2011, 09:48 AM   #56493
doug s.
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Originally Posted by JagLite View Post
Well, according to Jake Wilson's shipping department, and other companies that ship to the "48 continental states"....
It is news to us in Alaska that we are not part of the North American continent!
When did that happen? Why weren't we taught that in school?

I wonder which of the bridges goes from Alaska Island to the mainland of Canada?

.
.
.
.

Yes, we know they mean "contiguous states".... we deal with it daily.
damn, that sucks. yes, i am sure the "contiguous" part is the hang-up, regarding shipping problems. i use the term "lower 48", so there's no confusion. tho technically, i guess someone in hawaii could think i meant they're included as well, and i am leaving out minnesota?

doug s.
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Old 11-07-2011, 09:52 AM   #56494
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Originally Posted by motolab View Post
I would start by replacing the pilot jet.

Regards,

Derek
2nd guy to blanketly say that?

what ever happened to maintain/clean what you have in front of you? what about needing those skills for field repairs/on tour? also for most all, their local dealer will not have that part in stock so they wait another week vrs removing the pilot jet (you still remove it if you replace it) and clean it with carb cleaner and a small wire/needle if need be. he can get his bike running today.
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Old 11-07-2011, 10:24 AM   #56495
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Originally Posted by eakins View Post
this has been discussed before.

first it's the nature of a CV carb and it will never been totally responsive like a pumper carb. don't whack it.
Slide carbs will always have a loss in bottom end to lower midrange of the rpm range at the larger throttle openings because the air velocity (and therefore the quality of the metering) is proportional to the engine rpm and inversely proportional to the throttle opening. Slide carbs require you to learn throttle control. When tuned properly (I say "tuned properly" because it is possible to mask many problems with an overly rich mixture), you cannot open the throttle to WOT or near WOT suddenly from low rpm without significant hesitation (it’s even possible to stall the engine if you don’t back off). A properly tuned accelerator pump will help this, but is not likely to completely mitigate the problem. On the other hand, CV carbs allow you to open the throttle all the way from low rpm and will pull smoothly when tuned correctly, because the height of the slide automatically attempts to maintain a consistent velocity.

Where you are absolutely correct is that the ability to open the throttle to WOT from low rpm without hesitation with a CV carb does come with a price, and that is in a comparative lack of responsiveness in those areas where the combination of throttle position and rpm does not cause too much of a loss in in intake velocity with the slide carb.

Another area where the CV carb has an advantage is in the ability to change the fuel delivery curve based on rpm via the needle shape. On a slide carb, you can add or subtract fuel via tuning a circuit responsible for a given throttle position, but you cannot change the shape of the delivery curve in terms or rpm. For instance, if you had a lean and a rich spot at different rpm at a certain throttle position, you could fix the lean spot while making the rich spot even richer, or you could fix the rich spot while making the lean spot even leaner. Unfortunately, these types of scenarios happen quite frequently...

Quote:
second the pilot circuit is often too rich. everyone will say turn out the pilot screw 2 turns but if you turn it out only 1 (which is counter intuitive, and you think then wtf did i buy this pilot screw) the bog goes away.
You should tune only the idle mixture with the pilot screw. Off idle should be tuned with the size of the pilot jet (on a CV carb that is).

Regards,

Derek
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Old 11-07-2011, 10:32 AM   #56496
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
often, no need to do that just disassy the carb and clean it with pinesol.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=560117
if nothing else remove the pilot jet (with small flat head screw driver) and gently poke the clogged jet with a needle tip to break the crudded up bad gas.

my bike sat over a partial winter (i thought i'd get back out on another desert tour so i didn't drain the carb) with gas and stabil and still clogged the pilot jet so it's easy to do. i started by removing the pilot jet and poking it with a needle to open the hole, then did a pine sol soak. bike ran in top shape after.

the OP is about a get a lesson on how to remove the carb and get the float bowl screws off w/ an hand impact hammer and use new allen screws or he's going to take it to a shop for them to do it.
Thanks for the thoughts. You have pretty much summed up what I already thought but wanted to be sure there wasn't some DR specific issue to look at first. Never owned a Suzuki before but I have an XR Honda and a KLR so I am familiar with carbs and thumpers .

Thanks for the replies and I'm sure if I buy this bike I'll be back for more.

John
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Old 11-07-2011, 10:39 AM   #56497
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ag_streak View Post
Steve, I know approximately jack shit about rings and engine work, but if the service limit is .020" and yours is at .024", that's 20% over. Isn't that a reason to replace?
Sorry, I guess I was a little rambling in my original question. Simply put, where DR650's are concerned, do folks always replace the rings AND pistons as a general rule or just the rings as necessary? I spend my time mostly on 2 strokes where you generally always replace the piston and rings together.
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Old 11-07-2011, 11:18 AM   #56498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaSteve View Post
Sorry, I guess I was a little rambling in my original question. Simply put, where DR650's are concerned, do folks always replace the rings AND pistons as a general rule or just the rings as necessary? I spend my time mostly on 2 strokes where you generally always replace the piston and rings together.
If the piston still measures within specs of course you wouldn't have to replace it. But at only $78 for a new OEM piston I would replace it. Mainly because I am lazy. You would have to clean the old piston before you put new rings on it. The ring grooves have to perfectly clean with no burrs or the rings won't be able to move freely. This could cause oil burning issues from the rings not being able to seat in the bore correctly. They have to be able to rotate freely in the groove.
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Old 11-07-2011, 11:26 AM   #56499
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Originally Posted by eakins View Post
2nd guy to blanketly say that?

what ever happened to maintain/clean what you have in front of you? what about needing those skills for field repairs/on tour? also for most all, their local dealer will not have that part in stock so they wait another week vrs removing the pilot jet (you still remove it if you replace it) and clean it with carb cleaner and a small wire/needle if need be. he can get his bike running today.
It's not that easy to make sure that a pilot jet is completely clean, as, due to the small orifice size, small amounts of deposits make a big difference in cross-sectional area. I would also recommend against poking something through the jet that is made of a harder material than brass, as whatever is poked through could scratch or abrade the bore. Again, with a bore with a cross-sectional area as small as a pilot jet has, a small change can make a big difference in terms of percentage. I don’t know about you, but my time is valuable to me, and jets are cheap, so I am of the mind that it is better to replace them than to spend a bunch of time cleaning, only to possibly find out that the engine still doesn’t run right and then having to wonder if the carb I just disassembled, cleaned, reassembled, and attempted to adjust the idle mixture & speed on now still has a clogged or perhaps damaged pilot jet installed. Seems like a false economy to me.


Of course, if the bike absolutely has to be ridden today, clean away!

Regards,

Derek
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Old 11-07-2011, 11:28 AM   #56500
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^^^^
This.
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:08 PM   #56501
eakins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
It's not that easy to make sure that a pilot jet is completely clean, as, due to the small orifice size, small amounts of deposits make a big difference in cross-sectional area. I would also recommend against poking something through the jet that is made of a harder material than brass, as whatever is poked through could scratch or abrade the bore. Again, with a bore with a cross-sectional area as small as a pilot jet has, a small change can make a big difference in terms of percentage. I don’t know about you, but my time is valuable to me, and jets are cheap, so I am of the mind that it is better to replace them than to spend a bunch of time cleaning, only to possibly find out that the engine still doesn’t run right and then having to wonder if the carb I just disassembled, cleaned, reassembled, and attempted to adjust the idle mixture & speed on now still has a clogged or perhaps damaged pilot jet installed. Seems like a false economy to me.


Of course, if the bike absolutely has to be ridden today, clean away!

Regards,

Derek
truth in that as it's sub $10 for a pilot, but the bigger problem is finding/waiting on parts these days. if i knew the dealer would have the pilot jet in stock, then sure i'd go get a new one and be done with it, but we all know that is not the case. i guess i like to have my carb apart and know how it works and what i can do on the road if it does not. i bring a very thin needle with me in my tool kit just in case. i find a thin needle is smooth and safe to clean jets if need be.
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Old 11-07-2011, 01:38 PM   #56502
BergDonk
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Originally Posted by Rob.G View Post
Hey, what are some of the other speedo/instrument cluster options out there besides the TrailTech Vapor? I've gone through three speed sensors on my Vapor in a year, and the sensorts themselves only have a 90-day warranty (gee I wonder why). I'm about ready to ditch the thing and go with another solution. I know others have been posted here, but who knows where in 56,000 posts.

Thanks. :)

Rob

PS: Shameless plug: I have a Superbrace fork brace for the DR650 in the Flea Market right now.

I assume by 'speed sensor' that you mean the pick up at the wheel? A magnet on the wheel and a reed switch on the fork leg somewhere. If so, in my experience, they all work the same. I have bicycle ones on some of my fleet and still going strong after many years. Get the cheapest one you can, should be able to get a whole speedo and pickup for <> $15. You can then keep the Vapor head and just adapt the new pickup, or swap the lot.

FWIW, the Vapor and pickup on my wife's KLX has been fine for the last 3 years, although admittedly not too many kms.

Steve
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Old 11-07-2011, 01:43 PM   #56503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
It's not that easy to make sure that a pilot jet is completely clean, as, due to the small orifice size, small amounts of deposits make a big difference in cross-sectional area. I would also recommend against poking something through the jet that is made of a harder material than brass, as whatever is poked through could scratch or abrade the bore. Again, with a bore with a cross-sectional area as small as a pilot jet has, a small change can make a big difference in terms of percentage. I don’t know about you, but my time is valuable to me, and jets are cheap, so I am of the mind that it is better to replace them than to spend a bunch of time cleaning, only to possibly find out that the engine still doesn’t run right and then having to wonder if the carb I just disassembled, cleaned, reassembled, and attempted to adjust the idle mixture & speed on now still has a clogged or perhaps damaged pilot jet installed. Seems like a false economy to me.


Of course, if the bike absolutely has to be ridden today, clean away!

Regards,

Derek

+1
Jets are so cheap and easy to get I often wonder why anybody ever bothers trying to clean them. Just put a new one in.
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Old 11-07-2011, 01:52 PM   #56504
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Originally Posted by eakins View Post
2nd guy to blanketly say that?

what ever happened to maintain/clean what you have in front of you? what about needing those skills for field repairs/on tour? also for most all, their local dealer will not have that part in stock so they wait another week vrs removing the pilot jet (you still remove it if you replace it) and clean it with carb cleaner and a small wire/needle if need be. he can get his bike running today.
Like everybody else has learned probably the hard way, cleaning the pilot jet is an exercise in futility. You never get them 100% clean or you damage them by putting wires in there and enlarge the suckers.

Buy a 10 pack and have them on hand. Most bikes that run like crap have dirty pilot jets that the owner "cleaned". It takes much less time to replace a pilot jet with a new one since 99% of the time you put the carb back on and find out your "cleaned" pilot jet is not clean enough. Regardless of the cleaning, you can't stick the average needle in there, its a very small hole and its easy to scratch or nick the brass.

It takes about a week to get a 10 pack of pilot jets from most places. I bet motolab would send you one out quickly via USPS if you asked. Maybe 2 or three days shipping time in the US. The last one he sent me took two days and I'm clear out on the other side of the USA... Motolab stocks the o-rings, the bowl gasket and other good items for the BST carb.

sagedrifter screwed with this post 11-07-2011 at 02:05 PM Reason: I can't spell
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Old 11-07-2011, 02:13 PM   #56505
Rusty Rocket
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Originally Posted by sagedrifter View Post

It takes about a week to get a 10 pack of pilot jets from most places.
I must be lucky, my dealer has the jets in stock. They have a
small parts bin.


with almost any size mikuni and kehin jet. Any dealer that sells Japanese motorcycles that use Mikuni carbs,may have the same. Call around and be sure to take your old jet with you.
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