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Old 01-06-2012, 03:16 PM   #58711
BergDonk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
I've never claimed to have all the answers

If you want good help you have to give the whole story on your suspension setup and exactly what issue you are trying to solve, what kind of riding you do and how you want the bike to feel.
So far I get that you have .50 springs and 1/2" of preload but no mention of what weight oil, the oil height, or any modifications to valving. Harshness and deflection would usually be related to too much compression damping. The spring and preload you have right now should be a very good starting point and only need fine tuning with oil or small changes in preload.
And the harshness could also be the result of fork misalignment and therefore binding. If the triple are twisted, and/or the axle is not clamping in the central position to the RHS leg.

Steve
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Old 01-06-2012, 04:24 PM   #58712
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Originally Posted by Dravintoad View Post
I'm thinking I'd like to get a rotopax for my DR. So has anyone mounted one horizontal on the rear fender? and could/would I still be able to strap crap on top of it with no worries? EDITED
.
I can't find the post but will look more later. Use a piece of thick plastic cutting board. Cut to fit between the handles and attach it to the handles with rubber coated clamps. Mount the Rotopax quick release to the cutting board & drop the pax on it.

Or...anything to cross between the handles which can have the Rotopax mount secured to it. http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=724279 Basically, the Wolfman rack mount....just horizontal.

Hope that helps.
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Old 01-06-2012, 04:56 PM   #58713
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I just did the Race Tech fork spring calculator...I don't think that thing works right. I put "enduro/desert", oversize tank, standard hgt, and 220lbs. Says I need a .732 front springs. 8.5 in the shock. Sounds way high to me on the fork springs. I do run a 8.3 in the rear but that was due to my 220lbs plus another 75lbs of gear I had on the bike.
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Old 01-06-2012, 05:04 PM   #58714
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Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
And the harshness could also be the result of fork misalignment and therefore binding. If the triple are twisted, and/or the axle is not clamping in the central position to the RHS leg.

Steve
And as an aside that is not really relevent unless you have USD forks, the torque of the bottom triple clamp bolts is critical. Too tight and it crushes the outer tube and creates a tight spot as the inner tube bush tries to slide through.

Its also interesting how it can influence feel. My suspension tuner mate was telling me a few years ago about setting up the Team Yamaha R6 Supersports for the upcoming Oz RR series. They were the then new model, so maybe 06 or 07. They were at Eastern Creek testing. The bikes were fitted with Ohlins fork kits and the spec for the tc bottom bolts was 10 nm. Frank thought this was too low, and maybe a typo. He got confirmation from Ohlins that it was correct. He nevertheless set them up at 16 nm and off they went. Into the pits and the riders were complaining of no front end feel. Over a couple of quick sessions, with out telling the riders what changes he was making, he progressively backed off the torque and nothing else. Lap times came down each time. When he dropped them from 12 to 10 nm the lap times came down 3/4 secs and onto record pace and the riders were happy because suddenly they could feel the front tyre. Just bottom tc clamp torque, nothing else. Won the Oz championship again that year.
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Old 01-06-2012, 05:30 PM   #58715
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bergdonk View Post
and the harshness could also be the result of fork misalignment and therefore binding. If the triple are twisted, and/or the axle is not clamping in the central position to the rhs leg
+1
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Old 01-06-2012, 05:41 PM   #58716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
I just did the Race Tech fork spring calculator...I don't think that thing works right. I put "enduro/desert", oversize tank, standard hgt, and 220lbs. Says I need a .732 front springs. 8.5 in the shock. Sounds way high to me on the fork springs. I do run a 8.3 in the rear but that was due to my 220lbs plus another 75lbs of gear I had on the bike.
Those numbers are really not all that far off. It helps to realize that Race Tech's calculation data comes from a racing perspective. For more ordinary riding (or more ordinary riders) I start with the RT results and back those numbers off 5% - 10%. That will get it right in the ballpark for many riders unless they are really riding it like a AA enduro racer then the RT numbers will be pretty good.

The RT calculator is just a tool. It won't spit out the exact spring for every rider in any conditions but it's certainly a lot better than just blind guesswork.
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:15 PM   #58717
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Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
And the harshness could also be the result of fork misalignment and therefore binding. If the triple are twisted, and/or the axle is not clamping in the central position to the RHS leg.

Steve
And another possibility that comes to mind is a bent fork leg which has the same effect as misalignment.

I acquired a XT250 years ago for the missus. Bit harsh in the front end,and was traced to a very slightly bent leg. The PO had even machined down the axle spacer so the wheel could be assembled with the bend aiming for the other leg Ended up swapping the whole front end for an XL Honda one, and it had a disc brake which she was thrilled.

Steve
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:13 PM   #58718
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tire size question

i've tried to find a thread on this, but no luck.

so the stock rear tire for the DR is a 120. many people move up to the 130 size. some people try to jam a 140 or 150 in there as i've heard.

is there a real advantage to a bigger/fatter tire when offroading, or do people just think it looks awesomer?

if you know of a thread on this, don't hesitate to flame me!
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:16 PM   #58719
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UberKul View Post
Sounds to me like your valving is off not your spring rate? If you have the stock valving consider thinner oil. There might be some kind of fork alignment or stiction going on as well.
i'm using 5wt oil per how intiminators work (rod holes do net get drilled so 5wt is used vrs 10wt). stock valving is simple rod holes, no way i'm going back there. forks are aligned via motion pro tool.

every thing is pointing to lighter springs than .50 eibach.
i'm just working out the rate i want to use to achieve proper sag.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:23 PM   #58720
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yeah i know that. just trying to get my correct eibach rate.

to be clear race sag is what i'm talking about (me on the bike) not static sag. i'd like to get 25% or 2.5" of race sag. don't see how the 25% does not apply to the dr too. it's not like the dr is anything unique are far as suspension fine tuning. it's just an old school rod-dampened fork.

i have no issues with the intiminator valving technology and feel it's superior on the pavement over RT. i use my bike as a 50/50 DS touring machine not a dirtbike (way too heavy)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
Of course it's harsh ... your fork springs are too stiff for your weight. First thing to try is remove half or more of your pre-load spacer. Go test ride. Yes? No? Better? Worse? No Change? Fast better? Slow OK? Road vs. Off Road? Hard to make the DR work perfectly on both surfaces ... but you can come close.

I'm 200 lbs. and am running .47 kgs. Eibach springs from Jesse. Big improvement (over stock .40 kgs.) but I have fiddled with pre-load a lot to fine tune it. At slow speeds it's a bit firm ... but when the pace picks up things work pretty well. In the rough it's very good. Won't match my WR250F ... but what do you expect!

I don't look at Sag up front, I have about 1.5 inch as well, IIRC. I use 7 wt. fork oil and change it once every year or two. Stock fork springs are .40 kgs. ... and it's a progressive spring ... as opposed to the Eibach, which is straight rate.

What these forks really need is the full Race Tech treatment ... drilling a few holes in the cartridge and adding emulators and fine tuning pre load.

I had a 7.6 kgs. Eibach spring out back before I went to an Ohlins. The Ohlins is a different world. So easy to tune and more than enough rebound. Fantastic when bike is fully loaded.

On the DR650 you can't follow "normal" Race Tech recommended rates of Sag. The DR is weird and not like a dirt bike. It has a LOT of static sag out back (like 2.5 inches or so) ... and almost NO sag up front. I was told it has something to do with the shock linkage. Race Sag (you on the bike) is what matters. I have about 3 to 3.5 inches.

I urge everyone to read Paul Thede's (founder of Race Tech) essays on suspension. He wrote these essays years ago but still relevant today. Pay attention to what he says about the importance of riding "HIGH" in the travel and why that is best.
Good luck!
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:31 PM   #58721
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thanks rick for the great insight!

sounds like you find intiminator user need a lighter rate then emulator users which adds to the variable. that would make sense as intiminator valving is designed to reduce brake dive yet become active during bumps. this is not an exact system and my guess stiffens the system some. i love how intiminators feel on paved roads and i'm on them 1/2 the time. guess if i was using my dr as a dirtbike (i'd buy a wr250r instead) i'd use emulators. interesting observation on reducing preload 10mm or less. i'm at 13mm and can't remember why i chose that at this point.

sound like i should be using a .45 eibach for 175lbs

thanks!
bill

Quote:
Originally Posted by NC Rick View Post
Hi Folks, I make the spring recommendations based on my experience and preference on the DR 650 along with the continued input from our customers. The previous poster brought up the resonance frequency thing and that is a good way to start selecting a wheel rate in a total information vacuum. So many things come into play, and very importantly the individual riders preference can be the most important. The rate of the spring and the preload are gong to have a really big effect on the initial feel of the fork. With good damping, a firm spring will feel good on the street but not give the travel and function on real off road sections. Brake dive is an important factor and for a lot of people riding their bikes in a mild manner, it can be one of the biggest complaints. When using a damping system like the Intiminators that use very little bleed under smooth braking conditions the dive is really well controlled and we can get away with a quite soft spring rate. I personally prefer to get a different feel on the brakes and look for consistency of weight transfer under bumpy harsh braking and I may even prefer more "settling" on the brakes (more accurately pitch rotation of the chassis) to transfer weight to the front on loos terrain and to effect the steering geometry when riding on the street or track.

As always, setting up the DR650 in a true dual-sport (I now consider mine a Tri-Sport since getting Motard wheels and running it at the track ) is a compromise. What we want is to adjust the spring rate, spring preload, Oil height, rebound and compression damping to work well for everything. Each of those factors effect the other settings.

As an example, using an add-on compression valve with out drilling the stock compression orifices ca be done by using a lighter viscosity oil to extend the velocity of the compression cycle of the fork before the oil packs in the orifice and begins to dramatically increase the high speed compression damping. Using the lighter oil reduces the rebound damping. The reduced rebound damping could be good or it can be compensated for with additional compression damping (not necessarily a bad setup for traction and feel but potentially hurting ride "quality"). With more compression damping we may be able to get away with a softer spring rate while still giving the rider the feeling they want for brake dive and bump absorption.

I am 215 lbs (havn't checked since Christmas cookies), use an IMS tank and ride reasonably aggressively on road, track and off road. I do get air under my bike as often as I can but would never, ever clear any kind of double on an MX track. I am using a .5 Kg/mm spring with the stock forks and the Cogent Dynamics adjustable cartridge damping system installed. I started with an oil height of 140mm (which I knew would be low) and adjusted it up a small amount at a time until the forks bottomed infrequently and in places I expected them to. I am using only 5mm of spring preload but can experiment with that via the adjustable preload option on my forks. Making a series of precut spacers makes changing preload easy on stock forks. Changing the preload makes a really big difference to the fork feel and I personally do not like the off road feel of springs with more than about 10mm of preload.

With heavy riders (say closing in on 260+ pounds), we have done custom springs in the .7 Kg range. Light weight guys may not mind Emulators or intiminators with the stock springs. For a rider at 170 lbs who is not clearing big jumps, the .45 to .47 Kg/mm springs are often a good match and I would error to the light side of that selection if our customer has the Intiminators. An exception would be for hard off road use where a bunch of confused bumps will catch the inertia valve open when it wants to be closed, then you will want more spring than that for sure.

Tune the spring rate, preload and damping for the feel you want and then set the oil height to maintain the feel but resist bottoming. We will set up DR forks with oil heights from about 170mm up to and as high at 115 mm. I like to run a loaded sag near 2.8 inches for the forks but i like to adjust in both directions based on feel. Us East coast folks do not often have the opportunity to hit bid g outs like washes at high speed like the folks out in the wide open west. Spring rates can be changed accordingly...

Just my own $0.02 worth of drivel
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:43 PM   #58722
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what you don't have ALL the answers???

no worries. just seemed like you said keep it as is (.50) and ride it.
and that's not working for me.

sorry my link i posted had all my stats but i should have repeated those here.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=468588
5wt oil - per intiminator
165 oil height - per suzuki
13mm preload - no clue on why i chose that
stock intiminators. no shim stack changes.

i was the 1st guy to use intiminators and thus a bit has been learned how to optimize since my post. i'm just trying to catch up as my now optimally dialed in rear suspension (still slight clunk in linkage, but that is another issue i deal with in the spring) is highlighting a less than optimal front fork. just didn't notice it.

thanks for your input!!! sounds like .45/.46 is best for me or maybe progressive springs.
good insight in that intiminator user need a lighter spring than emulator users. same thing rick said.
since i'm an aggressive street rider too, imtiminator valving makes better sense emulators, which are for more dirt riders.

if suzuki uses .40 propressive springs, what do progressive springs come out as?
i'm a fan of straight rate springs, but would consider going back to progressive ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
I've never claimed to have all the answers

If you want good help you have to give the whole story on your suspension setup and exactly what issue you are trying to solve, what kind of riding you do and how you want the bike to feel.
So far I get that you have .50 springs and 1/2" of preload but no mention of what weight oil, the oil height, or any modifications to valving. Harshness and deflection would usually be related to too much compression damping. The spring and preload you have right now should be a very good starting point and only need fine tuning with oil or small changes in preload.

RT and Eibach spring rate numbers are the same. In fact many Race Tech springs are made by Eibach

You have Intiminators? I didn't see that in your previous post. The Intiminators are designed around using softer springs than would otherwise be recommended. Running with Intiminators throws the whole sag equation out the window because Ricor relies on the inertia valve to combat bottoming rather than depending on spring rate and oil height to do the whole job. Ricor recommends using stock springs. I think the Progressive Suspension springs are a better match with the Intiminators especially for touring who like things plush.

The .46 or .48 springs are each only 8% and 4% softer respectively than the .50 springs you have now. A very sensitive rider might be able to tell a 5% difference in spring rate. An average rider can probably feel a 10% difference but it would be relatively subtle.

The Safari tank only holds 18 lbs more fuel that the IMS tank. On a bike/rider combination approaching 600 lbs the additional 18 lbs is only about 3% and isn't all that big a factor.

If we were talking here about a finely tuned race bike then a few percentage points could make a big difference and we would be changing suspension setup for each particular race track. The fact is a DR650 is a huge mix of compromises. The suspension is no different. It has to be a broad compromise to make the bike versatile in a wide range of conditions. Worrying about whether a .47 or .50 spring is 'just right' is a waste of energy.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:02 PM   #58723
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
to be clear race sag is what i'm talking about (me on the bike) not static sag. i'd like to get 25% or 2.5" of race sag. don't see how the 25% does not apply to the dr too. it's not like the dr is anything unique are far as suspension fine tuning. it's just an old school rod-dampened fork.

i have no issues with the intiminator valving technology and feel it's superior on the pavement over RT. i use my bike as a 50/50 DS touring machine not a dirtbike (way too heavy)
The DR is a bit weird to me. 2.5 to 3 inches of static sag seems like a lot?? Maybe it's because of the weight and soft stock shock spring? I measure static sag by pulling UP on the seat ... top out the travel. Then let it go and measure when it's settled on it's own weight. According the Paul Thede; that is static sag.

Most dirt bikes have maybe an inch or so of static sag. But all (including the DR) seem to work well with about 3" to 4" inches of race sag on the rear shock. (rider on board) around 100mm to 104mm ? (IIRC)

IMHO, 2.5 inches of race sag (shock) is not quite enough. The front sags LESS ... I've never gone with 25% race sag on the forks. Maybe Rick can shed some light on why there is less race sag up front? Mine is about an inch ... or a bit more.

I rely more on test rides and fiddling until it "feels" right: Springs, pre-load, oil weight and oil level. I have a test loop that works quite well ... and railroad tracks ... which are a good test too ridden at speed.

Maybe the Intiminators are not working out for Off Road? Making for a harsher feel? I know they don't allow much dive ... not great for off road. Some Dive means Plush ride. A good thing.

You'll get through it. Keep at it.
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Old 01-07-2012, 12:16 AM   #58724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
sorry my link i posted had all my stats but i should have repeated those here.
5wt oil - per intiminator
165 oil height - per suzuki
13mm preload - no clue on why i chose that
stock intiminators. no shim stack changes.
Just to clarify your post above, when you installed the Intiminators you removed the stock preload spacer and replaced it with a 13mm spacer?

That seems to be a significant reduction in preload?

I'm interested as I am running the Intiminators with the same oil weight and height as you but with 15mm removed from the stock spacer to account for the Intiminator height and find the improvement overall great, however I find them a bit harsh on seal with small bumps or joins between sections.
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Old 01-07-2012, 12:58 AM   #58725
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Hi Guys,

I'm planning on doing some replacing of parts on my DR.

Regarding the chain, i've now got the standard gearing 15-41 with the 525 chain. I'm wanting to replace the chain, because it seems a bit loud and also has already some 22.000 km on it. Want to have a slightly shorter gearing, because i mainly use it for commuting where i don't drive on the highway that much. And a few extra revs would be ok, certainly because that would make it better off-road and for spirited riding.

Because the DR 650 SE has not been sold in europe, it is a bit difficult to find the parts. However, there is a XF 650 Freewind model, which shares a lot of components.
The DR comes with 15-41 (in my case) or 15-42 gearing. The XF 650 with 15-43. I've noticed the front sprocket and chain for the XF. Actually the hole rear wheel is the same, except for the 3.00" wide rim instead of 2.50".

The question is, will 15-43 require a longer than 110 link chain on the DR?

Thanks,
Thanas
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