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Old 01-06-2012, 11:06 AM   #58711
Adv Grifter
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Originally Posted by ChromeSux View Post
So far here is the bill, gasket set/ seals $104.00, gears and tranny stuff $195.00 splitting cases $120.00 total bill $419.00, in retrospect i probably should have bought a used motor, what say ye guys.
That is super cheap ... you really lucked out. Good luck with re-assembly.
Lot of work but worth it in the end, IMO.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:27 AM   #58712
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Originally Posted by Bronco638 View Post
Actually, I was after the shift shaft seal (#26) not the shift shaft itself. But, thanks for pointing me in the right direction!
I have no idea how I got #4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeSux View Post
.......He split them open and 3rd drive and 3rd driven need to be replaced, as well as the shift fork, one gear is bad but says to replace both to be safe, other than the chunk of gear on the magnetic drain plug i found no metal in the motor neither did he, whew what a relief, also the neutral switch screws were not tight at all,
will be putting them back with red lock tight.
There are better solutions than red Loctite:

http://www.advrider.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=15

Quote:
So far here is the bill, gasket set/ seals $104.00, gears and tranny stuff $195.00 splitting cases $120.00 total bill $419.00, in retrospect i probably should have bought a used motor, what say ye guys.
I agree that you got off cheap. Don't do hindsight shopping (cars, guns, appliances, wives), it will make you knutz.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:48 AM   #58713
NC Rick
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Hi Folks, I make the spring recommendations based on my experience and preference on the DR 650 along with the continued input from our customers. The previous poster brought up the resonance frequency thing and that is a good way to start selecting a wheel rate in a total information vacuum. So many things come into play, and very importantly the individual riders preference can be the most important. The rate of the spring and the preload are gong to have a really big effect on the initial feel of the fork. With good damping, a firm spring will feel good on the street but not give the travel and function on real off road sections. Brake dive is an important factor and for a lot of people riding their bikes in a mild manner, it can be one of the biggest complaints. When using a damping system like the Intiminators that use very little bleed under smooth braking conditions the dive is really well controlled and we can get away with a quite soft spring rate. I personally prefer to get a different feel on the brakes and look for consistency of weight transfer under bumpy harsh braking and I may even prefer more "settling" on the brakes (more accurately pitch rotation of the chassis) to transfer weight to the front on loos terrain and to effect the steering geometry when riding on the street or track.

As always, setting up the DR650 in a true dual-sport (I now consider mine a Tri-Sport since getting Motard wheels and running it at the track ) is a compromise. What we want is to adjust the spring rate, spring preload, Oil height, rebound and compression damping to work well for everything. Each of those factors effect the other settings.

As an example, using an add-on compression valve with out drilling the stock compression orifices ca be done by using a lighter viscosity oil to extend the velocity of the compression cycle of the fork before the oil packs in the orifice and begins to dramatically increase the high speed compression damping. Using the lighter oil reduces the rebound damping. The reduced rebound damping could be good or it can be compensated for with additional compression damping (not necessarily a bad setup for traction and feel but potentially hurting ride "quality"). With more compression damping we may be able to get away with a softer spring rate while still giving the rider the feeling they want for brake dive and bump absorption.

I am 215 lbs (havn't checked since Christmas cookies), use an IMS tank and ride reasonably aggressively on road, track and off road. I do get air under my bike as often as I can but would never, ever clear any kind of double on an MX track. I am using a .5 Kg/mm spring with the stock forks and the Cogent Dynamics adjustable cartridge damping system installed. I started with an oil height of 140mm (which I knew would be low) and adjusted it up a small amount at a time until the forks bottomed infrequently and in places I expected them to. I am using only 5mm of spring preload but can experiment with that via the adjustable preload option on my forks. Making a series of precut spacers makes changing preload easy on stock forks. Changing the preload makes a really big difference to the fork feel and I personally do not like the off road feel of springs with more than about 10mm of preload.

With heavy riders (say closing in on 260+ pounds), we have done custom springs in the .7 Kg range. Light weight guys may not mind Emulators or intiminators with the stock springs. For a rider at 170 lbs who is not clearing big jumps, the .45 to .47 Kg/mm springs are often a good match and I would error to the light side of that selection if our customer has the Intiminators. An exception would be for hard off road use where a bunch of confused bumps will catch the inertia valve open when it wants to be closed, then you will want more spring than that for sure.

Tune the spring rate, preload and damping for the feel you want and then set the oil height to maintain the feel but resist bottoming. We will set up DR forks with oil heights from about 170mm up to and as high at 115 mm. I like to run a loaded sag near 2.8 inches for the forks but i like to adjust in both directions based on feel. Us East coast folks do not often have the opportunity to hit bid g outs like washes at high speed like the folks out in the wide open west. Spring rates can be changed accordingly...

Just my own $0.02 worth of drivel
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NC Rick screwed with this post 01-06-2012 at 11:53 AM
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:52 AM   #58714
Dravintoad
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Rotopax

I'm thinking I'd like to get a rotopax for my DR just for some extra fuel on occasions. I don't have a rear rack and I am thinking I'd like to be able to mount it on the rear fender. I'm not interested in racks and whatnot. I also don't want a larger tank.

Usually when I strap anything to the rear of the bike, I find I really don't need a rack. I just bungee it onto the handles and it stays put. This works well for me.

So has anyone mounted one horizontal on the rear fender? and could/would I still be able to strap crap on top of it with no worries?

Pics of you set up if you have them please.

Thanks.
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Old 01-06-2012, 12:14 PM   #58715
Al Tuna
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChromeSux
So far here is the bill, gasket set/ seals $104.00, gears and tranny stuff $195.00 splitting cases $120.00 total bill $419.00, in retrospect i probably should have bought a used motor, what say ye guys.
Good deal, glad you caught it in time.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:29 PM   #58716
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There probably aren't any shocks off of other bikes that would fit the DR650 with compression/rebound adjustment is there? I was eye-balling a shock for sale off a ktm 640.
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:43 PM   #58717
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Originally Posted by Aerocycle View Post
There probably aren't any shocks off of other bikes that would fit the DR650 with compression/rebound adjustment is there? I was eye-balling a shock for sale off a ktm 640.
People have fitted DRZ400 shocks and I and others have fitted KTM shocks from the last of the mid/late 90s linkage 2 strokes with littlle effort. Slightly longer shock with more travel and fully adjustable. I guess good ones are a bit rare now, but I got mine a little over a year ago on eBay from the US and it was like new. Still needed springing and valving to suit though. Works fantastic, and heaps better than the upgraded standard shock.

Steve
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Old 01-06-2012, 01:48 PM   #58718
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Originally Posted by eakins View Post
i have 13mm of preload. weigh 175 nude and have .50 eibachs in there.
this yields 1.5" of sag.
http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=468588
...and it's frigin' harsh. the fork deflects of everything as the rate is too much.
it's become clear after i've optimized my Cogent rear shock finally.

kinda confused jeff, as i thought you knew suspensions better than this.
fork travel is 10.2" and thus the 25% of sag that all other suspension tuners recommend says i should have 2.5" of sag? why are you saying 1.5" of sag is ok and if i add a stiffer spring/even lass sag (.55) that's ok too???

please enlighten me why you recommended staying with what i have or going stiffer because it ain't workin" for me? have you tested w/ intiminators as it sounds like your a race tech emulator guy.
are race techs numbers not equal to eibach (thus the confussion) or do you think 1.5" of sag is ideal?

i was hopping you'd have all the DR guru answers, but i'm confused as ever?

so question to other intiminator users, what spring rate are you using?
i'm thinking .46-.48 at this point.

stock is .40 correct???
I've never claimed to have all the answers

If you want good help you have to give the whole story on your suspension setup and exactly what issue you are trying to solve, what kind of riding you do and how you want the bike to feel.
So far I get that you have .50 springs and 1/2" of preload but no mention of what weight oil, the oil height, or any modifications to valving. Harshness and deflection would usually be related to too much compression damping. The spring and preload you have right now should be a very good starting point and only need fine tuning with oil or small changes in preload.

RT and Eibach spring rate numbers are the same. In fact many Race Tech springs are made by Eibach

You have Intiminators? I didn't see that in your previous post. The Intiminators are designed around using softer springs than would otherwise be recommended. Running with Intiminators throws the whole sag equation out the window because Ricor relies on the inertia valve to combat bottoming rather than depending on spring rate and oil height to do the whole job. Ricor recommends using stock springs. I think the Progressive Suspension springs are a better match with the Intiminators especially for touring who like things plush.

The .46 or .48 springs are each only 8% and 4% softer respectively than the .50 springs you have now. A very sensitive rider might be able to tell a 5% difference in spring rate. An average rider can probably feel a 10% difference but it would be relatively subtle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eakins View Post
i would guess then with all that weight/fuel you could be pushing someone similar too a 300lb body weight...
who elses use a .47, how much do you weigh, what are your valves and how does it work?
The Safari tank only holds 18 lbs more fuel that the IMS tank. On a bike/rider combination approaching 600 lbs the additional 18 lbs is only about 3% and isn't all that big a factor.

If we were talking here about a finely tuned race bike then a few percentage points could make a big difference and we would be changing suspension setup for each particular race track. The fact is a DR650 is a huge mix of compromises. The suspension is no different. It has to be a broad compromise to make the bike versatile in a wide range of conditions. Worrying about whether a .47 or .50 spring is 'just right' is a waste of energy.
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Old 01-06-2012, 02:16 PM   #58719
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Originally Posted by procycle View Post
I've never claimed to have all the answers

If you want good help you have to give the whole story on your suspension setup and exactly what issue you are trying to solve, what kind of riding you do and how you want the bike to feel.
So far I get that you have .50 springs and 1/2" of preload but no mention of what weight oil, the oil height, or any modifications to valving. Harshness and deflection would usually be related to too much compression damping. The spring and preload you have right now should be a very good starting point and only need fine tuning with oil or small changes in preload.
And the harshness could also be the result of fork misalignment and therefore binding. If the triple are twisted, and/or the axle is not clamping in the central position to the RHS leg.

Steve
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:24 PM   #58720
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Originally Posted by Dravintoad View Post
I'm thinking I'd like to get a rotopax for my DR. So has anyone mounted one horizontal on the rear fender? and could/would I still be able to strap crap on top of it with no worries? EDITED
.
I can't find the post but will look more later. Use a piece of thick plastic cutting board. Cut to fit between the handles and attach it to the handles with rubber coated clamps. Mount the Rotopax quick release to the cutting board & drop the pax on it.

Or...anything to cross between the handles which can have the Rotopax mount secured to it. http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=724279 Basically, the Wolfman rack mount....just horizontal.

Hope that helps.
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Old 01-06-2012, 03:56 PM   #58721
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I just did the Race Tech fork spring calculator...I don't think that thing works right. I put "enduro/desert", oversize tank, standard hgt, and 220lbs. Says I need a .732 front springs. 8.5 in the shock. Sounds way high to me on the fork springs. I do run a 8.3 in the rear but that was due to my 220lbs plus another 75lbs of gear I had on the bike.
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Old 01-06-2012, 04:04 PM   #58722
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Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
And the harshness could also be the result of fork misalignment and therefore binding. If the triple are twisted, and/or the axle is not clamping in the central position to the RHS leg.

Steve
And as an aside that is not really relevent unless you have USD forks, the torque of the bottom triple clamp bolts is critical. Too tight and it crushes the outer tube and creates a tight spot as the inner tube bush tries to slide through.

Its also interesting how it can influence feel. My suspension tuner mate was telling me a few years ago about setting up the Team Yamaha R6 Supersports for the upcoming Oz RR series. They were the then new model, so maybe 06 or 07. They were at Eastern Creek testing. The bikes were fitted with Ohlins fork kits and the spec for the tc bottom bolts was 10 nm. Frank thought this was too low, and maybe a typo. He got confirmation from Ohlins that it was correct. He nevertheless set them up at 16 nm and off they went. Into the pits and the riders were complaining of no front end feel. Over a couple of quick sessions, with out telling the riders what changes he was making, he progressively backed off the torque and nothing else. Lap times came down each time. When he dropped them from 12 to 10 nm the lap times came down 3/4 secs and onto record pace and the riders were happy because suddenly they could feel the front tyre. Just bottom tc clamp torque, nothing else. Won the Oz championship again that year.
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Old 01-06-2012, 04:30 PM   #58723
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Originally Posted by bergdonk View Post
and the harshness could also be the result of fork misalignment and therefore binding. If the triple are twisted, and/or the axle is not clamping in the central position to the rhs leg
+1
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Old 01-06-2012, 04:41 PM   #58724
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Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
I just did the Race Tech fork spring calculator...I don't think that thing works right. I put "enduro/desert", oversize tank, standard hgt, and 220lbs. Says I need a .732 front springs. 8.5 in the shock. Sounds way high to me on the fork springs. I do run a 8.3 in the rear but that was due to my 220lbs plus another 75lbs of gear I had on the bike.
Those numbers are really not all that far off. It helps to realize that Race Tech's calculation data comes from a racing perspective. For more ordinary riding (or more ordinary riders) I start with the RT results and back those numbers off 5% - 10%. That will get it right in the ballpark for many riders unless they are really riding it like a AA enduro racer then the RT numbers will be pretty good.

The RT calculator is just a tool. It won't spit out the exact spring for every rider in any conditions but it's certainly a lot better than just blind guesswork.
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:15 PM   #58725
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Originally Posted by BergDonk View Post
And the harshness could also be the result of fork misalignment and therefore binding. If the triple are twisted, and/or the axle is not clamping in the central position to the RHS leg.

Steve
And another possibility that comes to mind is a bent fork leg which has the same effect as misalignment.

I acquired a XT250 years ago for the missus. Bit harsh in the front end,and was traced to a very slightly bent leg. The PO had even machined down the axle spacer so the wheel could be assembled with the bend aiming for the other leg Ended up swapping the whole front end for an XL Honda one, and it had a disc brake which she was thrilled.

Steve
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