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Old 06-22-2012, 08:35 PM   #66256
Lil' Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADV8 View Post
What stops the engine turning ?
That is a clutch basket to hub locking tool,you still need a arm off that to rest on the crank shaft snout to stop the clutch turning... fwiw.

These were old plates though with the socket accessible through the hole in the plate.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...lutch/CLT8.jpg

Place the trans in gear, use breaker bar or impact wrench on the nut.
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Old 06-22-2012, 08:39 PM   #66257
Jon_PDX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N.dica View Post
Well the guys at Procycle have repaired my carb and it arrived today. I want to say thank you to them and I appreciate the fast turnaround. I think in all it took only a week for me to send it to them, for them to fix it, and then to receive it back. Sweet. Cheers fellas!

Now naturally I reinstalled it today and hit the road. THAT is what I was expecting to feel from this carb. I definitely wasn't getting a clear picture before. My engine temperatures are down, the jetting is perfect, minimal popping on decel, and wicked throttle response. As stated previously, my old carb was dialed in, and whereas I couldn't tell much difference between the BST and the TM40 before, now that the TM40 has the vacuum leak sorted I absolutely notice the difference. The responsiveness and smoothness is striking. Funny how such a small vacuum leak can throw the whole thing out of whack. Anyway Im stoked.

.......snip rest..........

Cheers all, and thanks again to Drum, Carl, and all the guys at Procycle for being so damned professional:)
That's great news.....thanks for posting the followup.

Jon...
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Old 06-22-2012, 09:09 PM   #66258
ADV8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vfr870 View Post
Place the trans in gear, use breaker bar or impact wrench on the nut.
What was the point of bolting old clutch plates together then.
The whole point of locking the clutch hub is to avoid doing that to the transmission and making it easy to remove and refit/torque the nut.
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Old 06-22-2012, 09:56 PM   #66259
Snowy
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If you have problems with the DR on fast deep gravel sweepers try this:

As you are braking to enter the turn, start trailing the front brake with one finger, enough to make the front squat a little on the springs, keep throttle held on as you do it so you don't actually bleed any speed, pick your line and turn while trailing the front very gently.

I find in deep loose gravel it helps make the front bite down into the gravel and that stops it wanting to understeer. The rear is pushing against a slight load, so it tends to not skate so much and gets better hook up and resists oversteer.

Use the wheel ruts that already exist. I quite often over shoot a loose corner and use the high dirt gutter ( if there is one) on the outside as a berm. Crossing from rut to rut with a high deep gravel center is fun. Ride it like sand, weight up, very slightly rear and grip with the knees, steer with the knees and hips.

I learned this while running D952 front and Mitas E09 rear, and can adapt it to any combo now.

Some dual sports tyres don't like it because they just don't have the knob depth and separation to bite down into the gravel, they just start to skate.

So right tyres for gravel is the first step.

Practice gently gently to start with. You aren't talking significant braking force, just one finger and enough pressure initially that you can feel the front starting to squat.

You have to have a very fine touch, but you will feel the difference. It stabilises the front end and helps to prevent sudden break away on the rear. A rear tyre like the E09 drives and brakes well in gravel but it skates sideways under very little load. So by loading it slightly in the drive direction it settles the sideways skate. A lot of MX tyres work similar. They skate sideways if you enter a corner under too little throttle. But enter the corner and drive it as hard as you can and they propel you forward. Come in under no throttle, or just an elevated idle and the back and is out from under you. They are designed to dig and drive, under no load they slide along the surface.

With the DR you are riding essentially a very big heavy trail bike. It has that classic trail bike geometry, and a lot of weight pushing it. So you have to start using the sort of techniques the pros use on smaller bikes just to get it to do the basics well.

But it will do it.

I've chased Bergdonk through the trees and he does it, I think, without knowing he's doing it. As most old timers like us will. You go through an evolutionary thing when you've grown up with the first dirt bikes and evolved alongside them. The DR is a case of de-evolution to an extent. Modern dirtbikes have been designed and built to NOT have the character traits the DR has. But they are designed for a completely different task, and then used out of context by the majority. They are modern single track race bikes. Part trials bike, part motoX, part scrambler.

The old timers that love and cherish the DR grew up with these traits. It's a part of us. Sometimes it's hard to understand why Suzuki doesn't bring it into the modern dirt bike age, and then you look at the base demographic and it's primarily guys who grew with bikes just like the DR in terms of off road handling. To us, it just "is". It makes sense despite the inadequacies.

It may be a 25 year old design, but it represents what a dirt bike used to represent..."do it all" freedom.

Master the DR and you will truly be free...for as long as that little bullet proof 649cc heart beats. Cherish her. You'll miss her when she's gone.
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Old 06-22-2012, 09:59 PM   #66260
doug s.
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re: TM40 resolution

Quote:
Originally Posted by N.dica View Post
Well the guys at Procycle have repaired my carb and it arrived today. I want to say thank you to them and I appreciate the fast turnaround. I think in all it took only a week for me to send it to them, for them to fix it, and then to receive it back. Sweet. Cheers fellas!

Now naturally I reinstalled it today and hit the road. THAT is what I was expecting to feel from this carb. I definitely wasn't getting a clear picture before. My engine temperatures are down, the jetting is perfect, minimal popping on decel, and wicked throttle response. As stated previously, my old carb was dialed in, and whereas I couldn't tell much difference between the BST and the TM40 before, now that the TM40 has the vacuum leak sorted I absolutely notice the difference. The responsiveness and smoothness is striking. Funny how such a small vacuum leak can throw the whole thing out of whack. Anyway I'm stoked....
once again, someone w/a properly sorted stock carb is delighted w/the improvement made when upgrading to a pumper carb. again, i am not sure why folks mess w/"upgrading" the stock carb. but, if anyone still wants a stock carb that's been properly sorted for an open airbox and aftermarket muffler, make me an offer - i have one gathering dust. how's that for marketing?

doug s.
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Old 06-22-2012, 10:17 PM   #66261
Snowy
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After my "highly controversial" carb mods to the standard carb, I have ridden TM40 equipped DRs and been unimpressed. Yes they went a little harder, not much, but by God they drank a lot more fuel.

I have had guys with TM40s ride mine and they say there is very little difference. The TM40 is better....but...

Would I shell around $400 for one to replace what I have?

No. Not a chance.

If someone "gave" me one would I use it....probably not. Not unless it was for competition. Where I'm riding the engine doesn't get enough of a workout to justify it. The modified standard copes fine.



It's like the difference in acceleration between a 450 and the DR. I have guys telling me that their 450 goes heaps harder.

That's nice. So happy for them.

But out for a trail ride and they struggle to keep up.

Suspension. There's the key in rough terrain.

On the tar....yeah sure, knock yourselves out, I have a 120hp 600 sports bike for that. Or my 800 BMW. Or my other DR, which I WOULD put a TM40 on.

Horses for courses. You don't necessarily "need" the TM40. Look at the pros and cons first.
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Old 06-22-2012, 10:53 PM   #66262
doug s.
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most folks who go to pumper carbs report fuel mileage changes from a couple mpg worse to a couple mpg better. and snowy, you are the first i have heard who would rather not do it even if it were not an extra cost; especially for the dirt, due to better response and better smoothness...

re: pros-n-cons - not a lot of money for a pumper, if you shop used. (i have ~$175 into mine, and i haven't sold my upgraded stock carb yet.) and similar fuel mileage if properly set up. and all around better performance in any condition. i see zero cons going to a pumper.

doug s.
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Old 06-22-2012, 11:09 PM   #66263
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Does this make sense to everyone?

Does this look reasonable?

My DR has a stock motor, stock airbox, and stock carb. It has a GSX-R exhaust and probably a jet kit (at least a different jet.) Supposedly, the stock DR puts out 36 - 40 HP depending on the dyno and basic mods. My DR is just barely capable of hitting 100 mph according to a vapor which should be fairly close.

So, I looked at this: http://www.4strokes.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12968
(The chart a little above midpage.) 36 Hp and 100mph gives a Cd-A of 0.5m^2... which is the purple line. Seems accurate.

Then, I looked at this familiar site: http://www.procycle.us/bikepages/dr650.html
Namely, notice that the 780cc big bore kit puts out 54Hp. I'll assume the 790cc kit can put out 55Hp. I am pretty sure this is without the big valve kit as the 725cc with a big valve kit puts out 53Hp.

Also, notice the Uncorked DR Hp at 5500 RPM. 35Hp.
Now check out the rpm where the DR780 produces 35Hp. Approximately 3800 rpm! This bike loves the mid 3000rpm range! 5500rpm feels kind of busy...

Then, I looked at this site: http://www.gearingcommander.com
I put in the DR650. In top gear, the DR650 travels 85mph at 5500 rpm.
Imagine cruising 85mph at only 3800rpm! That's the fastest I'd want to cruise as that's the fastest speed limit in the US I think. I am not saying that 85mph would be enjoyable, but the bike could do it easily with the 790cc kit.

Finally, check out the Hp vs. Top Speed Chart. Sticking with the purple line, but going to 55Hp gives the DR650 a top speed of about 115mph!

Anyway, I was pretty excited about this. I keep fantasizing about a twin-engined enduro that fits the same bill as the old DR, but I'm always turned off by the complexity, extra 100 pounds, prices, etc. I think with the extra cc's, the DR would be the best 50/50 adventure - exploring - continent crossing bike hands down for a solo rider.
And yes, I'd add $1,000 to that bike rather than buy a KTM or Husky.
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Old 06-22-2012, 11:49 PM   #66264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowy View Post
So if a well set up XR is a bench mark you can relate to, then that's it in a nutshell.
I had an XR350R back in the late '80s; I enjoyed it while I had it, but that was because I didn't know better. The IT200 that I got immediately afterwards was a better fit, and a Husky 250 was a revelation. I couldn't go back to riding the XR or IT anymore.

I know that the XR350R does not resemble the XR650R; the former had the famous rubbery but judiciously underdamped frame, whereas the latter has a rigid frame in line with modern standards.

If I allow myself some latitude in extrapolating from the XR350R to the XR650R, I can see what you are saying about the relative capabilities of the latter and a DR -- and I'm afraid what I take from this comparison is that I might not like the DR no matter how many mods I perform on it.

BTW, I actually did try an XR650R before getting the DR, but I did not like its riding position at all: it placed you inside the bike, an old-school concept that I thought had died in the '90s. One of the main reasons I got the DR was because it has a modern riding position, one that places the rider on top of the bike.

So right now, with the Shinko 705s on my DR, I cannot possibly determine how much of its behaviour on dirt roads is due to the tyres or to something else. Mind you, I had never ventured onto dirt roads before without knobbies (and most of the times, those knobbies were not even DOT-approved), so my current experience with the DR is a first for me. Hence, until I put some decent tyres on the DR, I will keep an open mind and take it one step at a time.

Thanks for the feedback!
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Old 06-22-2012, 11:49 PM   #66265
doug s.
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feelers, yust fyi, according to jeff at procycle, the 725 and the 780 dyno charts both include upgraded cams and big walve heads. it seems the torque, not the hp is where the 790 really excels over the 725.

in any ewent, my bike, w/stock motor, fcr39 carb, k&n cone filter, hi flow midpipe w/fmf powerbomb header and tsukigi gsxr1000 can and stock gearing, will run all day at 80-85, and pull strongly to at least 100. (according to the vapor trailtech, not the stock speedo). as i don't run dirt w/my bike, i am considering dropping a tooth in the rear sprocket (or changing rear tire to 150/70/17 from 150/60/17) yust to lower the rpms; i am sure the bike will still run 80-85 yust fine...

doug s.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:42 AM   #66266
Snowy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doug s. View Post
most folks who go to pumper carbs report fuel mileage changes from a couple mpg worse to a couple mpg better. and snowy, you are the first i have heard who would rather not do it even if it were not an extra cost; especially for the dirt, due to better response and better smoothness...

re: pros-n-cons - not a lot of money for a pumper, if you shop used. (i have ~$175 into mine, and i haven't sold my upgraded stock carb yet.) and similar fuel mileage if properly set up. and all around better performance in any condition. i see zero cons going to a pumper.

doug s.
For the steeper shale and rocky trails the modified carb is fine. Any more go and it just wheelspins.

The XR650R went heaps quicker on climbs and such, but it was on proper enduro tyres.

Different geometry. I put exactly the same tyres on the DR and it tends to spin more. It's to do with swingarm pivot point and the RMZ suspension I have. Although better than the stock DR suspension, it has obviously the same tendency to squat in the rear under throttle as the RMZ does.

Great if you know how to use it for small tight super cross tracks to get the bike to squat for a big jump from a short take off...not so great for getting on the gas on a long climb.

The XR will tend to bite harder when you get on the throttle hard. You can feel the rear rise slightly when you get right up it. The higher the swingarm pivot in relation to the centre line between the rear axle and the counter shaft sprocket when at full rider sag, the more the rear wheel will bite under throttle. The linkage ratios and shock valving play a part.

You need the torque of the engine, and not the power down low with a trail bike. Tractability in the lower rev range, and just off idle. In the videos I shoot where I'm climbing I'm really being careful with throttle control most of the the time to control wheelspin. If it spins on these climbs you lose momentum so fast that literally the rear end will step out, you have to get off the throttle, and forward progress stops and the inevitable crash starts. It may take a few metres and 20 secs to play out, but it marks the begining of the end on a steep shale climb.

I have the standard carb working so close to a pumper and working so well at low revs and right off idle for the setup on this particular DR that there would simply be no significant gain. I have never had it at wide open throttle on a climb any where ever. I have never needed more acceleration than the standard carb would deliver. I'm riding at the limit of my suspension, my tyres and most importantly my ability when I'm in more technical terrain. The engine doesn't come into it really.

For my other DR that has a DR rear end and Racetech shock internals etc, yes, I would bother. Different geometry, different use, different set up, different result in the dirt and on tar.

My set up on my trail DR is for trail riding. It works best at low throttle, short shifting, using the engines torque. I did a lot of reading and measuring and comparisons between different set ups and their design characteristics before choosing it. All around for what I do I think it's the best set up. Like all things, there's a level of compromise.

It depends on exactly what sort of riding you do, what the setup is on your bike, and where you ride as to the perceived benefits of a pumper carb.

As for fuel consumption gains, I have never in all the years I've modified cars and bikes, had a performance gain and a fuel consumption gain at the same time. When I modified Chev engines, if I got the advertised fuel consumption benefits from these "performance" parts I fitted, I calculated that I'd have the only 80mpg 327 Chev in history.

I think guys that fit pumpers and are really excited about it spend more time on tar than I do, and there they have a tangible result.
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Old 06-23-2012, 02:10 AM   #66267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowy View Post
.........I've chased Bergdonk through the trees and he does it, I think, without knowing he's doing it.............
My technique, when I'm on it, which isn't so often these days being an old fart, FWIW, is to run into a corner under brakes, because I'm on it, and need to slow for the turn, and not just by rolling off the throttle. As I start to turn with the front loaded, ease the front brake, and turn some more. Loading the front, apart from forcing the tyre to grip somewhat like Snowy says, steepens the steering head when compressing the forks, and makes turning quicker. Keep the rear brake on, and maybe pull the clutch if its tight slow going, this'll facilitate some rear end steering and get it to pivot around the steering head a bit/lot. Once you are at or just past the mid point of the turn, throttle on against clutch, and control drive with the rear brake, and may or may not still be just feathering the front brake. At 2/3 to 3/4 turn, front brake is off and throttle is on. Control exit drive with the rear brake. Its all subtle, and smooooooth.

Off to Canberra tomorrow, leaving here at 06:00, and will be delivering some training and encouragement to some noobs for the day to boost my pension a bit.

And any berm, rut, gutter you can take advantage off is good.

And Snowy, must catch up for a ride again sometime?

Steve
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Old 06-23-2012, 04:24 AM   #66268
Snowy
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What sort of training?

I'm still waiting to do an instructors course. Rang around and got info ages ago, work got in the way, then surgery, then kids and their lives going off track, then moving their kids in with me....

The usual stuff that steps in and destroys your will to live...

Someone told me there's light at the end of the tunnel...with my luck it'll be attached to a train.


But I have bikes. So it's bearable.
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Old 06-23-2012, 05:27 AM   #66269
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Update - finally sorted!

Well... this one was a doozie!

Some info/update for anyone out there who has/may come across any similar issues in future.

I had a chat to Carl at Procycle (had some other order stuff happening) and he seemed to think that it definitely sounded like a ground issue. (Thanks Carl for all of your logic input and knowledge - and for taking the time to be helpful - appreciate it!).

So, long story short - I went through my entire Vapor and dash install - and could just not make sense of it. Unplugged the vapor etc. and still had the issue - so obviously unrelated.

I then went through all of the indicator connectors again - just to make sure they were seated correctly (even though I had done this a few days ago already).

Turns out that the rear right indicator connector into the harness (2-pin) must not have been seated correctly and most probably was not getting a good earth connection through the pin! Unplugged the connector, plugged it in again and voila - all of a sudden everything worked again as it should!

Plugged the vapor and dash back in - all ok.

Thanks for all the input and help, if nothing else I hope this helps someone else out there. There is a lesson here - earthing issues can be really painful!

Out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ralfmuller View Post
Ladies and Gents, this one has me stumped.

The history:
  • Did the trail tech vapor and indicator dash upgrade
  • Split the harness on the indicators to allow left/right indicators on indicator bar
  • Installed LED's for indicator bar (came with vapor)
The result:


Everything works beautifully - speedo, power to it, tacho, indicator bar, high beam, low beam, neutral etc... BUT


My indicators have issues:
  • Left indicators (front and back) work normally - normal flash rate and all ok
  • Right indicators - front works BUT flashes at double speed, rear DOES NOT work at all!
  • Indicator bar for Right indicators flashes at double speed also


What I have tried to resolve this issue:


1. Checked indicator bulbs - bulb is fine (changed left to right and back etc. right side does not work, left does)


2. Checked voltage on right indicator seat/connector - is pulsing voltage (I think? as it should) at the double rate - hard to tell with Digital multimeter and slow screen response)


3. Swapped the vapor dash indicator bulbs FROM LED back to incandescent bulbs


4. Purchased a new flasher unit ELFR-1 (http://www.customled.com/products/fl...sher_relay.htm)


5. With new solid state flasher unit, the right rear indicator still doesn't work, however the front does and it now flashes at normal speed.




I am literally at a loss at this point - not sure what else to do here... has anyone else come across this before?



Any tips/hints/tricks?


Thanks
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Old 06-23-2012, 07:37 AM   #66270
procycle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowy View Post
I have ridden TM40 equipped DRs and been unimpressed. Yes they went a little harder, not much, but by God they drank a lot more fuel.
If that's the case then the TM40 was definitely not set up correctly.
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