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Old 09-24-2012, 01:34 PM   #69436
Jammin
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Location: New Delhi - new 'home' for post RTW
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Hey guys, I'm stuck on this electrical issue. I got the spare CDI from South Africa today. It's continuity matched my current CDI with terminal 9 also reading much higher values than stated in the manual. Anyway, I put it in the bike with 1 new spark plug (the inner plug doesn't want to come out) and the old coil. Initially, it wasn't running very well, running for just under a minute and then shutting down, just like before. Then a mechanic friend from Nairobi called and told me to unplug the generator (3 yellow wires) and start the bike. It started fine and ran great for 5 minutes, no issues. He suspected that something's either wrong with the Rectifier or the generator coils. I plugged the generator back in and bike continued to run fine for another 5 mins at idle. I checked continuity across the pickup and power source coils and both are within range - tested after engine was hot. I checked voltage across battery terminal while running and was holding steady at 13.35 at idle and dipping down to 12.2, 12.4 at high rpms and then quickly back to above 13.0. So it sounds like rectifier is fine. I checked AC voltage coming from generator at idle and was getting readings around 30 volts.

He said if bike is running at all then it's not a CDI issue because if CDI is faulty then bike wont even run. Is that true?

So the bike ran great for 10 mins and then I shut it off. Im going to go for a test ride tomorrow. But not sure the problem is fixed. I think something's up with the electrical power coming from engine to CDI that's spiking and causing CDI to shut off the bike.

What can I test further to root-cause this issue?

I have a spare rectifier that I'm going to mount tomorrow.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:27 PM   #69437
procycle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
Hey guys, I'm stuck on this electrical issue. I got the spare CDI from South Africa today. It's continuity matched my current CDI with terminal 9 also reading much higher values than stated in the manual.
Not surprising. I've rarely found the resistance testing on CDIs to be of much value.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
Then a mechanic friend from Nairobi called and told me to unplug the generator (3 yellow wires) and start the bike. It started fine and ran great for 5 minutes, no issues. He suspected that something's either wrong with the Rectifier or the generator coils.
Not the rectifier but quite possible the source coil. The source coil is wound onto the stator over the top of the charging coils. The heat generated by the charging coils could be causing the stator to expand enough to break a connection in the source coil. A new stator is the only practical fix for this.

If the spark does not fail with the 3 yellow wires disconnected I think you have isolated the problem. If you had to, you could ride it a long way with those wires disconnected as long as you also disconnect the headlight and taillight to avoid draining the battery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
He said if bike is running at all then it's not a CDI issue because if CDI is faulty then bike wont even run. Is that true?
98% true

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammin View Post
What can I test further to root-cause this issue?
Test the resistance of the source coil while the spark is failing.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:44 PM   #69438
Bob808
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Hello all. I just finished rebuilding my '97 dr650se. I replaced some crankcase bearings, all seals and gaskets. Also got the Procycle Jet kit and I installed it in the carburetor after I gave it a complete cleaning of all parts. The issue that I'm having is that the exhaust pipe turns red at cylinder exit. First setup was with 4th groove on the needle and 145 Mikuni jet (as instructed in the instructions from procycle). Stock exhaust with the blob ground (but not the whole weld, just the blob) and twin air filter. First run was ok, with about half turn for the pilot screw (that was the point where the revs would go up a bit from the closed position). After one test run (not too impressive, the bike would surge on the top end with good start) I noticed that I forgot to let the bike breathe so I said that until I find it's sweet spot I wont cut the box but remove the side cover from the air box. After I did this I still didn't like the way the bike handled after 1/2-2/3 throttle. As I kept fiddling with the pilot it got dark outside and my exhaust pipe was like a red neon light. I quickly turned it off so it would cool a bit and then did some more adjustments with the pilot screw. That didn't help at all and almost all times I got a loud pop on the exhaust when turning the engine off.
Then I began to read on this matter so I decided that it was running to lean. rotated the carb and replaced with 150 jet and put the shim on the 5th groove of the needle thinking this would make it richer. Put everything back in, rotated the pilot 1 and half turns and fired it up. Forgot to mention before that it would start after 5-7 rotations of the engine, now it started much quicker (when cold, after it warms up it starts instantly). After 1 minute the pipe turned red again, not as bright as the first time but almost all the way down where it gets curved. Turned the engine off and I thought at restricting the air now. Put the side cover on the airbox and started it again. Ah, after the jet and needle adjustments there is no more popping sound at turning the bike off but a slight puf. Started the bike again and the pipe is still turning red. The red spot is still 2/3 down on the pipe as the last time. I hopped on it and took a small ride in my back garden, couldn't rev it much as I don't have much room only reved it lightly in first gear. It pulls nice and the spot doesn't get brighter but still there. Is it something that I'm missing? I tried with wd40 at engine head connection and at the connexion between the carb and airbox and I got no change in revs. The pilot was setup each time exactly where the revs would go up and stabilize. 1 maybe 1.5 turns max. So with stock airbox, stock exhaust, 5th groove on needle and 150 mikuni jet the exhaust pipe turns red. Ah, forgot to mention that I also got a Uni secondary air filter. All the hoses are connected properly and are not blocked. I did not replace the piston nor the rings, I put back the rings as instructed in the manual, adjusted the valve clearances as best as I could and I replaced the spark plugs with cr10eix (it had cr9e before, were ok on clearance and clean). The muffler had a ripped nut still attached as the previous owner probably lost one screw (from the 4 keeping attached the gray ornament) and decided to replace it with a longer one. As he forced it inside it pushed into the muffler making the nut to rip the weld and come up the bolt. I went and repaired the damage as fumes were coming out that way. So the exhaust is not leaking. I don't know what else to check...
I had another go in the garden. I wanted to see how it behaves after a bit of cool down. It started up fast, stable idle. It is pulling nice in first gear and is quieter than before. If I shut off all the lights in pure dark I can see the red spot extending to about half the visible pipe (about 20cm). But it is not bright. If I had some lights around I don't think I could notice it. So is this ok? The setup is plenty rich and still red pipe with stock airbox...


later edit:

couldn't resist and got her out for a spin for about 3-4 miles. It pulls solid through all the gears. I managed to reach about 40-50 mph and only at one time I felt like she misfired, like she skipped a beat. I also think I could hear some decel popping but it wasn't loud at all. Overall I really love the way she pulls. As I came to a full stop it did what it always does when going for a longer test ride (longer meaning not in the backyard). At idle it gets really revved up, like half throttle it seems. I had to stop the bike and then the really loud pop came. So I had to dial down the idle adjuster to get the revs steady at normal idle rpm. I did not tighten the nut on the idle adjuster so I guess that maybe it screws itself in?
As I was having so much fun and being revved up when stopping I managed to forget the most important thing, to see if the pipe is glowing or not. I remembered after I've parked it. So I fired her up again, adjusted the idle and in about 30 seconds the pipe turned red again, half the visible pipe in the front. Not to faint and not too bright.

It is hard for me to tell as I bought the bike in a very poor condition and only rode it for 1-2 miles before buying it. It ran like crap, 1/3 of the throttle it was ok then it would just choke. Also noticed that the neutral light is intermittent so I shut it off quickly. I could tell it's problem was carb related so I grabbed it for cheap from the previous owner. Found that the main jet had fallen in the floating bowl and insinde everything was dirty. I don't know how it ran at all. Anyway I only had a Husky 610TE about 7 years ago, and had it for one month and don't remember much about how thumpers should run.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:55 PM   #69439
Warin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
The source coil is wound onto the stator over the top of the charging coils. The heat generated by the charging coils could be causing the stator to expand enough to break a connection in the source coil. A new stator is the only practical fix for this.
Errr an inmate here rewound the source coil. Possibly it is similar to the DRZ source coil, though not a 'Official Susi maintenance item for the DR it may be worth investigation. Depends on your budget of $/time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
Test the resistance of the source coil while the spark is failing.
Probable when the engine is hot. And this is a good hint for getting somewhere after it fails - wait for it to cool before giving up on riding it out. To assist cooling it you can splash it with a little water - not too much at one time, you don't want rapid cooling that could stress something.
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Old 09-24-2012, 03:05 PM   #69440
Warin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob808 View Post
As I kept fiddling with the pilot it got dark outside and my exhaust pipe was like a red neon light.
These are AIR COOLED motors - needing a flow of air over them to maintain operating temperature.

If you run it stationary it will over heat given enough time. if you really need to operate stationary either

restrict the time you operate for

AND/OR

provide a flow of air - say from a fan.
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Old 09-24-2012, 03:15 PM   #69441
Rusty Rocket
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thumpididump View Post
FWIW, those sound meter apps for smart phones are pure garbage. Just for fun last year, a friend and I tested 3 different sound meter apps on each of 3 different smart phones. The results varied a great deal between each app, and also between each phone. Hard to trust any of them to even provide a vague idea of the actual sound level. A $39 sound meter would be a million times more accurate.
Thanks for that.

I am still smarter than my phone so I have never tried those apps. My phone is a 2007 flip phone. All it does is make and receive calls and take pictures.
It would text also, but I refuse to type with a number pad. (no qwerty)

I'd love to throw it in the woods and only be able to be contacted at home, but it's invaluable when trail riding.
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Old 09-24-2012, 03:41 PM   #69442
procycle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Warin View Post
Errr an inmate here rewound the source coil. Possibly it is similar to the DRZ source coil, though not a 'Official Susi maintenance item for the DR it may be worth investigation. Depends on your budget of $/time.
Sure, given the availability of materials the source coil could be rewound but Jay is riding around the world and is currently stuck in Kibondo, Tanzania . I know I would have trouble getting the correct wire to rewind the source coil locally. I imagine it would much easier to get a stator shipped to him than to find the wire of the correct gauge and with the correct coating to do a reliable rewind.

Another thing, if the source coil is breaking down due to age and heat cycling the stator coils are likely suffering from the same fatigue.
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DR900 Big Bore Stroker buildup
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procycle screwed with this post 09-24-2012 at 04:34 PM
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Old 09-24-2012, 03:53 PM   #69443
procycle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob808 View Post
I just finished rebuilding my '97 dr650se...
A glowing pipe while idling is completely normal for a DR650. It has been discussed here many times. if you tune it so rich that the pipe doesn't glow the bike won't run either. Trying to tune the idle mixture with the main jet and needle position will just get you lost in your tuning setup. You still have the stock exhaust so put the 145 main jet back in. Running the 150 main will just make your bike slower.

Idle is controlled by the idle mixture screw and idle speed screw.
Mid-range throttle response, steady speed cruising and 'low rpm wide open throttle' is controlled by the clip position.
Wide open throttle, high rpm operation is controlled by the main jet size.
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www.procycle.us - Everything for your DR650 and lots of other great stuff!
DR900 Big Bore Stroker buildup
TurboDiesel Corvette - go to the end to start at the beginning
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Old 09-24-2012, 04:10 PM   #69444
Krusty ...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob808
The issue that I'm having is that the exhaust pipe turns red at cylinder exit.
They all do that. It aids in night-time conspicuity .
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Old 09-24-2012, 04:31 PM   #69445
Bob808
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Oh thank you. That put my mind at ease. Then I will install back the 145 tomorrow and see how it goes with the rest of the settings.
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Old 09-24-2012, 05:04 PM   #69446
Warin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
Sure, given the availability of materials the source coil could be rewound but Jay is riding around the world and is currently stuck in Kibondo, Tanzania . I know I would have trouble getting the correct wire to rewind the source coil locally. I imagine it would much easier to get a stator shipped to him than to find the wire of the correct gauge and with the correct coating to do a reliable rewind.
Errr I'd not be so certain as to the local skills at fixing stuff from raw products, it may well be that locals have the skills to perform a repair quicker and certainly cheaper than a slow expensive (import duties and delays?) delivery. As to the availability of the wire leave that to the locals, they know more about it than us?


Consider that imported goods may be very expensive and that labour rates may be low. A replacement alternator for a car or truck may be a year or twos labour charges - so repairing it is desirable. The people repairing alternators may also do coils too...



Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
Another thing, if the source coil is breaking down due to age and heat cycling the stator coils are likely suffering from the same fatigue.
The wire gauge of the stator coils would make them more able to withstand the stress. Buy the time the stator coils failed you could expect say two source coil failures? All guess work based on theory. So not worth much in the real world where practice and results are far more important.
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Old 09-24-2012, 05:06 PM   #69447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
Idle is controlled by the idle mixture screw and idle speed screw.
Mid-range throttle response, steady speed cruising and 'low rpm wide open throttle' is controlled by the clip position.
Wide open throttle, high rpm operation is controlled by the main jet size.
Correspondences on CV carbs:

Low rpm all throttle positions: float height, needle base diameter, emulsion tube outlet size
WOT operation overall: main jet
WOT operation between HP peak and red line: main air corrector
WOT operation below red line: jet needle shape
1/4 throttle opening: jet needle clip position
1/8 throttle opening: pilot jet size
1/16 throttle opening: pilot jet size
idle: mixture screw adjustment

Note that tuning should always be done from the top down, although the idle mixture screw should be adjusted at each change.
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Old 09-24-2012, 05:42 PM   #69448
thumpididump
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I remember the days of texting with a number pad... annoying for sure.

I once got so furious with my cell phone provider's customer service person (a customer service complaint), that at the end of the phone call, I took my Motorola flip-phone and put it under the rear tire of my SV650 and ran it over

A few days later, I had a shiny new iPhone with a new cell company. Within a year, I ditched the iPhone and got a Samsung Galaxy with Android. Much better.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Rocket View Post
Thanks for that.

I am still smarter than my phone so I have never tried those apps. My phone is a 2007 flip phone. All it does is make and receive calls and take pictures.
It would text also, but I refuse to type with a number pad. (no qwerty)

I'd love to throw it in the woods and only be able to be contacted at home, but it's invaluable when trail riding.
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Old 09-24-2012, 05:54 PM   #69449
PPCLI-Jim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by troyfromtexas View Post
I just created a post on my blog about how I transformed my DR650 into a DR650 adventure motorcycle for a year of riding around South America. It includes all the modifications and costs. I thought some of you might be interested. She has been a great bike...and sadly she is for sale.

2011 Suzuki DR650 Adventure Motorcycle
:

i see you are letting go of your DR are you selling any parts / separately ? If you are send a list of parts / cost. I am in the market for some DR 650 upgrades without blowing my budget.
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Old 09-24-2012, 06:23 PM   #69450
psmcd
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Thanks

Nice summary, I'm on the verge of some fiddling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
Correspondences on CV carbs:

Low rpm all throttle positions: float height, needle base diameter, emulsion tube outlet size
WOT operation overall: main jet
WOT operation between HP peak and red line: main air corrector
WOT operation below red line: jet needle shape
1/4 throttle opening: jet needle clip position
1/8 throttle opening: pilot jet size
1/16 throttle opening: pilot jet size
idle: mixture screw adjustment

Note that tuning should always be done from the top down, although the idle mixture screw should be adjusted at each change.
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