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Old 11-06-2012, 09:36 AM   #70771
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
I am going to pull my BST40 carb and clean it, and hopefully do some mild mods to make it work a little better. Is the Procycle kit the way to go? I think I have seen a couple of others (like Moose) but they seem to be more tilted toward a stock rebuild or freshen-up.

TIA for any info.
As can be seen here,



the DynoJet/ProCycle needle shape leaves much to be desired. The Factory Pro needle has a more reasonable shape, however stainless steel and titanium needles are both hard on emulsion tubes. I would therefore recommend the non-USA adjustable OEM needle. I do not recommend increasing the slide lift hole area, as doing so causes increased slide guide, emulsion tube and slide wear.

Regards,

Derek
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:48 AM   #70772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
As can be seen here,

-- snipped for brevity --

the DynoJet/ProCycle needle shape leaves much to be desired.
Is that a chart you produced yourself with your equipment?
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:53 AM   #70773
Adv Grifter
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I bought a Klein on line for about $38. It's a full function VOM, so also good for household elec. work. It has a nice big LED screen, beeper and lots of other functions you may never use.

On line there are hundreds of VOM meters starting around $10 up to over $100. The Klein is OK, just don't leave the screen exposed to SUN. Not good for a week!

I used to have a very tiny Triplett professional VOM. Great to take on the road. But after 20 years it died. The Klein is too big to carry with ... I'll buy another small one for travel. A must have tool .... IMHO. (If you don't use it, one of your buddies might!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by victor441 View Post
I like the LED type, it gives plenty of info, am running this one and especially like that it dims to half brightness when it is in a steady state for a minute or so but goes to full brightness if there is a change...$28

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Old 11-06-2012, 09:53 AM   #70774
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
Is that a chart you produced yourself with your equipment?
No Sir.

Regards,

Derek
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Old 11-06-2012, 10:54 AM   #70775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
No Sir.

Regards,

Derek
Well, then I've gotta ask:
Who did the tuning and what are their qualifications?
Was the airbox opened up?
Was there an aftermarket exhaust?
What other mods were done the the bike?
What condition was the carb in?
Did the bike run well and was the owner happy with the result?
After tuning did the bike still return good fuel economy (high 40s/low 50s)?

Here's another result:
I don't have the details but I believe this is from NordieBoy.
Maybe he can fill us in?
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www.procycle.us - Everything for your DR650 and lots of other great stuff!
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TurboDiesel Corvette - go to the end to start at the beginning

procycle screwed with this post 11-06-2012 at 11:33 AM
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Old 11-06-2012, 11:02 AM   #70776
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Derek,

Would you do anything besides a non-usa adjustable needle? I just want my stock carb sorted, I am not really trying to do anything besides get rid of the bogging down, backfiring, and poor mileage. I am agnostic about how it is done. I like the idea of the Procycle kit, as a one stop option, and one that several people here have used.

I do not like the fact that there are many changes done at once, and apparently some sorting that may need to be done afterwards (this may be the case with any change to the carb). My biggest fear is getting into a situation where my bike is out of commission for a long time while I sort issues out.

Just about anyone here would know more about tuning that I do. I just like to ride it to work everyday and the one thing I do not have is time to chase gremlins out of the system.

Skidmarkart screwed with this post 11-06-2012 at 06:16 PM Reason: word spellin' and ghrammar was teribull
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Old 11-06-2012, 11:48 AM   #70777
Adv Grifter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
Well, then I've gotta ask:
Who did the tuning and what are their qualifications?
Was the airbox opened up?
Was there an aftermarket exhaust?
What other mods were done the the bike?
What condition was the carb in?
Did the bike run well and was the owner happy with the result?
After tuning did the bike still return good fuel economy (high 40s/low 50s)?

Here's another result:
I don't have the details but I believe this is from NordieBoy.
Maybe he can fill us in?
D+ for reading comprehension bud.
Derek has posted that dyno graph about 50 times here. If you R E A D at the bottom of the graph, details are there and basic state of the bike and set up listed. Condition of carb not stated, but most all on your list IS.
Funny, I've got nearly the exact same set up and my bike dyno's at 39 HP! No, don't have the chart. It was a freebee, off the books.
I'm running a Twin-Air, 3rd clip and NO header weld grind. Go figure? Dyno run done at around 25,000 miles. 3 years ago.

Adv Grifter screwed with this post 11-06-2012 at 11:55 AM
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:36 PM   #70778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by procycle View Post
Who did the tuning and what are their qualifications?
I don't know, however the question is mostly irrelevant, as the shape of the CO trace we see here is a result of needle shape. All that a tuner can do without a change in needle shape is to:

1) Raise or lower entire CO trace via a change in main jet size. Unfortunately, smaller will not help as the lowest CO is already below 3%, and richer will not help because the highest CO is already (way) above 5%.

2) Raise or lower the fuel level. The general trend for raising is to increase CO toward the lower rpm and for lowering to decrease the CO toward the lower rpm. Depending on the bike, there are two trends within this one. One is for the effect to be much like a see-saw (that is linear), the other is for the effect to be more parabolic, that is with the effects being very strong at the lowest rpm and tapering off exponentially as the rpm climb (done by 3-4K rpm). Unfortunately lowering the fuel level will not solve this problem no matter which of the two ways the result may manifest in.

3) Increase or decrease main air correction. The general trend is for the effect to be very strong at the highest rpm and nonexistent below the horsepower peak. The rise in CO from 6 to 7K rpm could be flattened in this way, however that could easily cause the mixture to be as lean at 6 and 7K as it is at 5K and 5K is already too lean, so there is little point in such a change.

If I had a bike here that I was tuning, the CO trace looked like this, and the customer would not allow me to change the needle, what we see here would probably be more or less the best I could do. In other words, the tuner is cornered by this needle. His skill level is irrelevant, because no one, regardless of their level of skill, could do much better.
Quote:
Was the airbox opened up?
The description says it was.
Quote:
Was there an aftermarket exhaust?
The description says there wasn't.
Quote:
What other mods were done the the bike?
The description says the weld inside the header was ground.
Quote:
What condition was the carb in?
I don't know, but the question is mostly irrelevant, as the primary actor in a worn out carb will be the emulsion tube. A worn emulsion tube manifests itself in the same way as a change in fuel level.
Quote:
Did the bike run well and was the owner happy with the result?
It depends on the definition of the term "well". By my definition, the drastic deviations in CO show that it did not. I don't know the owner so I cannot speak to what he thinks of it.
Quote:
After tuning did the bike still return good fuel economy (high 40s/low 50s)?
I don't know.
Quote:
Here's another result:
I don't have the details but I believe this is from NordieBoy.
Maybe he can fill us in?
This shows us some out of context O2 derived "A/F ratio" traces, which I consider to be mostly useless (even in context), as the relationship between O2 content an "A/F ratio" is tenuous at best.

I'd love to see another DynoJet needle equipped DR650 chart with a CO trace...

Regards,

Derek
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:43 PM   #70779
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
I just want my stock carb sorted, I am not really trying to do anything besides get rid of the bogging down, backfiring, and poor mileage.
Has the engine always exhibited these symptoms?

Regards,

Derek
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:09 PM   #70780
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motolab View Post
Has the engine always exhibited these symptoms?
Somewhat - the bike is fairly new to me. It wasn't running 100% when I got it, but it was running much better than it is now. In the past couple of weeks, it has gone downhill. There's more low-end bog (taking off from idle), and there is more popping when the throttle is released. Seems to run great with the choke on.

I got it about 4 weeks ago a 2005 with 800 miles... So, it has done a fair bit of sitting. The guy who had it before me got it as a present from his wife (cool wife right?), and put a total of 100 miles on it in the last year. I did that in the first day.

I don't know if the change in weather (it is much cooler here now) or simply riding a bike that hasn't been ridden that has loosened thing up a bit.

It is bone stock, never been off road, never had any service (to my knowledge) besides oil changes. I did one of those as soon as I got it, and it had very clean oil and a newer filter on it (someone had obviously done an oil change).

I have fiddled with the external adjustment screw, but I can't seem to find a happy spot.

Also, I have rotten mileage from what folks here seem to get. Maybe 30mpg?

Thanks for any info...
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:13 PM   #70781
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You guys crack me up with your dyno charts. Always arguing over the best CO or 02 numbers. Those numbers are to "help" tune an engine. They are not the tell all when it comes to a properly tuned engine. I can't argue much on the CO numbers because no one in the racing (late model dirt, NASCAR, Offshore boat to name a few) use it. They have no need for it when you have BSFC, #/HrHp, Fuel F #/HR and Air Fuel that can be compared to each other. I guess that is the difference between an 8K dollar motorcycle dyno and a 45K engine dyno.

What I can tell from experience is that numbers like CO and 02 are "relative" to each individual engine. You do what the engine LIKES. If it makes more HP with less fuel- then that is what the engine likes! Who cares what the actual air fuel number or CO number is. The end result should be what makes the engine run best. Not a specific air/fuel or CO number. It is good to have these numbers because it helps engine builders determine how changes to an engine changes fuel burn, hp, fuel efficiency etc. But, you cannot compare those numbers between two different motors with different setups. Also, anyone that is trying to get specific information doesn’t use a chart. They have what looks like a spread sheet that breaks all the info down to every 50 or 100 rpm engine change.

Like this: You can see how much info is gathered in a short sweep of 5100-5900 rpm. A chart/graph can not show all of this at once- it gets too cluttered.



Derek must be an engineer. He has one set idea and refuses to believe anyone else might be able to get as good or better results from a different idea. I have asked him 2 times for his BSFC and F #/HR numbers...He hasn't come up with anything yet...so once again I state that while he has a lot of useful information- He doesn't have it all.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:37 PM   #70782
motolab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
Somewhat - the bike is fairly new to me. It wasn't running 100% when I got it, but it was running much better than it is now. In the past couple of weeks, it has gone downhill. There's more low-end bog (taking off from idle), and there is more popping when the throttle is released. Seems to run great with the choke on.
If the engine runs better when the cold start enrichment circuit (BST40 carbs don't have chokes, regardless of what the lever says) is active, then the mixture is too lean.
Quote:
I got it about 4 weeks ago a 2005 with 800 miles... So, it has done a fair bit of sitting.
The fact that the symptom happens at small throttle openings and the fact that the bike has been sitting both point to a clogged pilot jet.
Quote:
I don't know if the change in weather (it is much cooler here now) or simply riding a bike that hasn't been ridden that has loosened thing up a bit.
That the symptom has worsened in colder temperatures also points to a lean mixture. I would start by installing a fresh pilot jet, setting the float height to 14.7mm and then adjusting the idle mixture & speed.

Regards,

Derek
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:46 PM   #70783
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
You guys crack me up with your dyno charts. Always arguing over the best CO or 02 numbers. Those numbers are to "help" tune an engine. They are not the tell all when it comes to a properly tuned engine. I can't argue much on the CO numbers because no one in the racing (late model dirt, NASCAR, Offshore boat to name a few) use it. They have no need for it when you have BSFC, #/HrHp, Fuel F #/HR and Air Fuel that can be compared to each other. I guess that is the difference between an 8K dollar motorcycle dyno and a 45K engine dyno.

What I can tell from experience is that numbers like CO and 02 are "relative" to each individual engine. You do what the engine LIKES. If it makes more HP with less fuel- then that is what the engine likes! Who cares what the actual air fuel number or CO number is. The end result should be what makes the engine run best. Not a specific air/fuel or CO number. It is good to have these numbers because it helps engine builders determine how changes to an engine changes fuel burn, hp, fuel efficiency etc. But, you cannot compare those numbers between two different motors with different setups. Also, anyone that is trying to get specific information doesn’t use a chart. They have what looks like a spread sheet that breaks all the info down to every 50 or 100 rpm engine change.

Like this: You can see how much info is gathered in a short sweep of 5100-5900 rpm. A chart/graph can not show all of this at once- it gets too cluttered.



Derek must be an engineer. He has one set idea and refuses to believe anyone else might be able to get as good or better results from a different idea. I have asked him 2 times for his BSFC and F #/HR numbers...He hasn't come up with anything yet...so once again I state that while he has a lot of useful information- He doesn't have it all.
Thanks Mongle,
Nice to have you speak up with your experience.

My experience is working with engineers, and I have learned that this rule is all too true.

Rule of engineering #1:

If it was not taught in the books at school
if it has not already been done
if it isn't my idea


It isn't possible


As you so well stated, when the engine is "happy" it is right.
And every engine is different, even if brand new and exactly the same.
And every dyno and every dyno operator will get different results from the same engine.

As Mongle said, dyno testing only helps, it is not the answer to all problems.
It is a tool to be used with knowledge and experience.

Skidmarkart - sounds like your engine problem is just a carb that needs a complete cleaning by someone who knows what they are doing.
Could be you if you can read and follow directions.
Old gas has probably gummed things up and needs to be cleaned out.
Pilot jet is the common culprit I believe and while some have had success just cleaning it, most have found better results by replacing it.

Installing a jet kit will probably NOT solve the problem.

You could pull the carb and send it to Derek...

I have not found a competent mechanic at any mc shop so I do my own work.
I am not a mechanic either but I can read and follow directions.

BTW, the best tuner I have known tuned by ear.
Yes, he had his own dyno too.
He tested air pressure, temperature and humidity before every run.
He kept a detailed notebook of every condition of every run.
He is an artist. Most tuners are technicians at best.
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Old 11-06-2012, 03:46 PM   #70784
Skidmarkart
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Derek,

Thanks so much. I'll start there.



Meanwhile Carb Wars...

This is the Nick Winters show and I do the entertaining, thank you
Lets go out with something really hot for these folks
The big hit out of '77


Aww..Carb Wars, Nothing But Carb Wars
Give Me those Carb Wars
Don't let them end


Oh Carb Wars
If they should bar wars
Please let these Carb Wars stay


And hey!
How bout that nutty Carb Wars bar
Can you forget all the creatures in there


And Hey!
Darth Vader in that black and evil mask
Did he scare you as much as he scared me
Yeow!


Carb Wars those here in Bar wars
My 7th Winter up here!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53DQgbj2mIc

Skidmarkart screwed with this post 11-06-2012 at 03:47 PM Reason: A link would make this AWESOME. Okay, maybe not. But still... better than it was?!?
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:02 PM   #70785
Mongle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skidmarkart View Post
I don't know if the change in weather (it is much cooler here now) or simply riding a bike that hasn't been ridden that has loosened thing up a bit.

I have fiddled with the external adjustment screw, but I can't seem to find a happy spot.

Also, I have rotten mileage from what folks here seem to get. Maybe 30mpg?

...
Good tunes man...good tunes...


Cold weather makes lean conditions more noticable- but then I see you are getting only 30mpg which means a lot of fuel.

If it has an external idle mixture adjusting screw someone has messed with it already. The stock one is accessed behind a plug with a small screwdriver. Or were you talking about the idle speed screw? Might not be a bad idea to pull it apart- go over what is in there. Stock should have a non-adjustable needle and a 145 main jet.

Like most have said. Start at the begining. Check the little filter fuel filter at the inlet.

I ran mine bone stock for probably 8K miles- no problems. Not being able to leave something bone stock I changed out the exhaust and the lean surge got worse. I did put the PC kit in mine and it made the bike much better- no cruise surge and more power up top.
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