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Old 11-13-2012, 01:46 PM   #70951
JagLite
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Cool2 New DR Dreams

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post
I agree ... and those are the type of upgrades Suzuki could achieve without a major redesign and only adding slightly to MSRP.

Give me the latest "big piston" Shock or KYB's PSF (pneumatic spring pressure) forks or Showa's SFF (separate function fork). These are the future ... and Ohlins is even further ahead.

But in my comment, I was thinking more of what a total re-design could mean. Things like underseat fuel tanks and eliminating shock linkage ... if not done carefully ... well, they could end up throwing the Baby out with the Bathwater!

Yes, there certainly is that danger!

I only wish for what I want, done perfectly. Simple, eh?



Under seat tanks create as many problems as they solve. I've ridden MANY bikes with underseat tanks (G650, X Chal, KTM 690, F800GS) and only the KTM really felt like it handled well or better than my DR650.

It isn't the answer to all handling problems by itself, centering the CG would always (I think) be a big improvement but the entire bike as a whole has to be designed correctly, not just as an add on to the existing. As with most things, a design is done by many and they don't always work well together. And a design is always the best compromise you can come up with.

And as mentioned by Kommando, the costs of Aux tanks and placement can be problematic. Unless the DR650 motor can get 55 to 60 mpg ... then carrying lots of fuel is still required for most serious ADV touring duty.

Yes, and that could be addressed by the factory with optional larger tanks. Once the middle space is filled, then higher up areas would/could be turned into tankage for the ones who like the Dakar look. At least in my mind additional fuel could be designed in from the beginning.

Plastic subframes may be a no go for anyone doing ADV riding and carrying a serious load. We're just not there yet, IMO. BMW rear sub frames are notorious for cracking and breaking ... and yet their bikes are 60 lbs. heavier than the simple DR650. The KTM 690's do not make it easy to carry 100 lbs. of gear either.
Be careful what you wish for!

Very true!

Too often a "NEW and IMPROVED" version is much worse than the original. Heads must roll!
There are so many types and grades of plastics available today and no doubt more tomorrow. The correct plastic, as I would want it, would be uber strong, stiff, but bendable in a crash without cracking. Is there such a plastic now? We use a lot of UHMW (ultra high molecular weight) plastic in our designs but I don't think it has the required properties. Just a future possibility I think for now.

One off Carbon Fiber (CF) laminated with Kevlar fuel tank subframes have been successfully used. But is far too expensive to make and sell. The layup schedule can design the required strength.

However, a simple steel subframe will be much less expensive and is easily repairable in most areas with any people around. For now I would go for the steel tube subframe with a removable plastic fuel cell that fills the entire area. With a bolt on subframe removing the fuel cell would be easy and allows it to be larger.


I would be willing to entertain the possibility of a Linkage-Less system as it does save weight and cost. But even KTM have gone back to Linkage rear suspension on their top Moto Cross bikes.

Now why is that?

But KTM still uses linkage-less (PDS) on the cross country and enduro bikes?

Why is that?


Have you heard the saying:

"Everything is easy if you know nothing about it"?

That's me.


I "think" it should be easy...


My thinking is that it is possible to design a very good, but perhaps not the very best, rear suspension without a linkage. Especially for a dual sport/ADV bike that may be ridden over any terrain, but not at racing speeds (usually!). It may carry just a rider, or it may be loaded down like a donkey. I want good suspension, much better than what we get stock now, but I don't need mx race bike quality suspension for riding dirt roads. I am very happy with my Cogent Dynamics rebuilt shock.


Look at the shock linkage on the latest BMW SS1000 HP-4. Look familiar? I'm guessing they paid Suzuki a licensing fee to use this design ... as the Japanese OWN all the design patents for most every linkage ever thought up. BMW have avoided modern linkage ... since forever.

The BMW item looks very much like a Suzuki product. See latest Cycle World write up on the HP-4, written by E Boz (Eric Bostrum). Amazing bike, by the sound of it.

But the Japanese are having some success with new linkage-less designs:
Versys, Ninja 650. Aprilia has dabbled here too. But most of that is about COST SAVINGS.
Linkage just flat works. Moto crossers (and later road racers) figured that out back on the early 70's. Anyone in current Moto GP without Linkage? How about WSB?
I agree that for racing everyone wants, and needs, the absolute best state of the art suspension they can afford.
As well as brakes, engine, transmissions, and so on.

I understand that the factories have to outfit their top-of-the-line street bikes with similar equipment in order to sell.
Even though the bike may only "look" like the latest race machine.

Remember when Suzi came out with the TM400 Cyclone?
It sure looked like the DeCoster/Roberts bikes.
At least to many of us who dreamed of riding a world class mx bike.

I applaud the factories for designing linkage-less bikes even if only to keep the costs down.
If they keep the manufacturing costs down, that should transfer down to the rider as lower maintenance and expense.

I want light weight at an affordable price. That means eliminating everything possible.
If it ain't there, it didn't cost anything and it doesn't weigh anything.
High quality steel tube frame with an aluminum swingarm is a great start.

I don't want a DRZ650 so I hope the factory isn't looking that way.

Eventually they will, maybe, come out with a redesigned DR,

I certainly hope it is an improvement on the current one and not a different take on the current Adventure Bike craze of adding weight, height, expense, complexity, and so on.
I also have a Wee Strom and will be selling it in the spring.
Excellent engine.
Too stinkin' heavy, too tall (and I am 6'-4") too much easily damaged and expensive "body work" plastic, heavy cast wheels that are fragile, hippo wide with the Givi cases on, and other complaints.
The engine is the only thing I like about the bike actually.

I am familiar with Ecotrans and their FI system.
Several, including ProCycle have bought them and are using them.
It looks very promising and I hope ProCycle will eventually come out with a complete kit for our bikes.

MXRob built his own FI system too.
It is certainly doable but I will wait and see how the pioneers feel about it next year.
A carb is pretty basic and simple after all and will get you home even if running poorly.

But a properly sorted FI that self tunes like the latest aftermarket systems....

OK, lunch is over, gotta get back to work.
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Old 11-13-2012, 01:57 PM   #70952
Rustycage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRAVELGUY View Post
I just pray that Suzuki just keeps the current DR650 unchanged and keeps selling it for many years!!!! It's a great basic bike with many uses.


TravelGuy
Slightly lower first, second and maybe third for me please. The rest is just fine.
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:00 PM   #70953
Rob.G
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Albie View Post
There's a reason there weren't very many X-Challenge's produced.
Don't even get me started on those damn things. I rode with somebody on one back in March at the Death Valley Noob Rally. Damn thing broke down near the end of the day. Ended up being a loose positive battery cable. Not that you'd know since the freakin' battery is under the gas tank. And the stupid computer wouldn't allow the bike to be bump started because of the low voltage. What a horrible design.

Rob
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Old 11-13-2012, 02:32 PM   #70954
neo1piv014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MADurstewitz View Post
Sometimes the kill switch can cause this when it gets dirty. If you leave it in, moisture builds up in there, I think. I had this happen and now make sure the button is always out (run position) before I leave the bike parked. I had been using the key to turn it on and off before. The contacts might have become dirty due to lack of use.
I have a sticky kill switch, so I've always left it out. I might just find a way to remove it entirely.

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Old 11-13-2012, 02:41 PM   #70955
rogor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech23 View Post
The new 2013 DR 650 is now on Suzuki's web site. It looks like it has an all new cartridge fork or the same misprint as last year...which ever way you want to look at it.

Tech23
Have a look at the specs :rear brake ..drum ????
WTF
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:16 PM   #70956
Albie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech23 View Post
I can't speak for everyone but I wouldn't care how many ounces a set of fully adjustable cartridge forks and a twin clicker rear shock added.

Tech23
So long as you don't mind paying $8K for it then.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:23 PM   #70957
Albie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adv Grifter View Post

I would be willing to entertain the possibility of a Linkage-Less system as it does save weight and cost. But even KTM have gone back to Linkage rear suspension on their top Moto Cross bikes.

Now why is that?
Monster table top and big double jumps for one. Their enduro and trail bikes are still using linkage-less which works great for those applications.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:02 PM   #70958
Mongle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wayno View Post
Maybe DR750/800 had twins but can only find single for DR650
I saw a bike once that was made somewhere like England/ Australia that was a supermoto from the ground up and it had a DR650 motor- WITH dual carbs! I think the name of it started with a "C". Can't remember. I was on my DR and pulled up next to it..was looking back and forth at the engine and sure enough it was a DR650 engine..I remember thinking I needed to get my hands on that cylinder head!

Then I remembered how much I disliked fiddling with carbs and thought 1 was enough!
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:20 PM   #70959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mongle View Post
I saw a bike once that was made somewhere like England/ Australia that was a supermoto from the ground up and it had a DR650 motor- WITH dual carbs! I think the name of it started with a "C". Can't remember. I was on my DR and pulled up next to it..was looking back and forth at the engine and sure enough it was a DR650 engine..I remember thinking I needed to get my hands on that cylinder head!

Then I remembered how much I disliked fiddling with carbs and thought 1 was enough!
The CCM 644 used the DR650 engine, apparently.

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Old 11-13-2012, 04:24 PM   #70960
Mongle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmbeedee View Post
The CCM 644 used the DR650 engine, apparently.

That is it! Good call!
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:26 PM   #70961
TRAVELGUY
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I have done the Suzuki option lowering and installed a low seat on mine . Still wish it was a inch or more lower. I'm generally traveling heavy loaded and need stable footing.

TravelGuy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rustycage View Post
Slightly lower first, second and maybe third for me please. The rest is just fine.
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Old 11-13-2012, 04:43 PM   #70962
PPCLI-Jim
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A better seat and a larger tank. I can see why they downsized the tank "trying to save weight". I know they would advertise with the empty weight but I would like the extra range. I mean the dollar cost for us to purchase a larger tank can get silly just to add a few liters more. The seat !!! Everyone has their own horror story of the stock seat, all of the top rated replacement seats use a wider seat base.I have the Suzi Gel seat and its lower but no better. WHY OH WHY cant they change these .
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:33 PM   #70963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmbeedee View Post
The CCM 644 used the DR650 engine, apparently.
Yep. Actually, it's the Freewind motor which is just like the DR650 except for the dual carbs, 2 intake ports and bigger valves.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:35 PM   #70964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neo1piv014 View Post
Regarding fuel injection on these bikes, there was a fellow on YouTube that mounted up a FI kit to his DR650. The company he bought it from basically did these pre-made FI kits for bikes based on engine size. The one he got was for 500-800cc engines (if I remember correctly) and was selling for not much more than the pumper carb goes for.
Long thread on DRriders about the Ecotrons EFI module, which was developed with help from members there, and which is now a commercial product.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:41 PM   #70965
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Laugh Battery tenders are a very good thing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Rocket View Post
I have been through 2 battery replacements for my '96. about 3 years per.

When the battery goes bad, the bike cranks, but won't start. Then it goes dead. After a charge, it starts and seems fine. Then the next time I went to start it, usually at least a week later, same problem. I think a marginal battery, with just enough juice to turn the motor over, doesn't have enough extra to fire the sparkplugs. Just an opinion. If you can try someone elses battery, even a smaller one, you can probably prove it is the battery. If the battery is over 3 years old, it's probably the culprit.
Keep the bike on a battery tender when parked and you'll get 8+ years of quick dependable starting out of a battery. I have the pigtails installed on all 4 of my bikes, so its super easy to plug them in when parked. I regularly get 8-10 years out of a battery, and the bikes all fire up instantly all the time...cold, hot or anything in between....a fully charged battery makes a BIG difference, my bikes jump to life
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